So are we running out of Fossil Fuels or Not?

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Lastly, its not just the CO2 from using fuel that is causing issues. This has simply started the chain reaction. As the lands in Russia, Canada etc, heat up, and the ice melts, it is releasing far greater quantities of methane from organic matter that has been frozen for millions of years. Not only are the quantities far superior to carbon emissions from fuel use, by methane has a much worse effect on climate change than CO2 does.

Sadly your all screwed, I just cant give you an exact date on when you will be. The human Psyche wont allow for the earth to be saved, we all must have jobs, we all must consume etc. If we aren't digging our own graves, its quite certain we are actively playing a major destructive path for our children.

You are quoting this guff from the Al Gore 'Hymn Sheet'.

The lands are NOT heating up & the ice is NOT melting overall.

In the Antarctica, for every bit of ice lost in one area there is more ice forming in another, & the media only show you the pictures of where ice has been lost. This cycling has been going on for eons.

In the Arctic, there has been a very slight decrease in temperatures & an accompanying increase in ice for at least the last 2 years.

Methane, are you serious ? How can man cause an increase or decrease to that ?

The world is not warming, so they had to change their stance from 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. The climate has always seen change, so many people are now wise to this scam. They will need a new name for their religion to survive.

Years ago, in the 70s, we were being bombarded with so-called global cooling theories & the hole in the ozone layer, more BS. What will we be hearing in another 40 years ?

As I said earlier, please don't confuse 'carbon pollution' with real pollution, & yes, we will eventually run out of fossil fuel, but what has this got to do with any changes to the climate.

Dr Terry

[Tom Tucker]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Lastly, its not just the CO2 from using fuel that is causing issues. This has simply started the chain reaction. As the lands in Russia, Canada etc, heat up, and the ice melts, it is releasing far greater quantities of methane from organic matter that has been frozen for millions of years. Not only are the quantities far superior to carbon emissions from fuel use, by methane has a much worse effect on climate change than CO2 does.

Finally, a factual arguement, and this in particular. The scientists studying snow melt in the Arctic are all saying it's happening at the fastest rate in the history of the planet, not the history of mankind.

The natural heating and cooling you all speak of occurred over thousands of years prior to the industrial era. This is scientifically measurable and not some propaganda.

Whilst I agree there is a lot of sensationalist media surrounding this issue (apparently this July was the hottest in 4000 years), I'm not sure how people can say there is zero evidence when scientific journals with actual data are released all the time.

Its been mentioned a few times that global warming is somehow a money making scheme. Who do you think stands to profit most from denial? Surely it wouldn't be the oil, gas and mining companies who already hold huge vested interest, with the future of their profitability at stake?

[2011G6E]

Oil exists in massive amounts...new tech means it's easier to get than in years past.
There is also the interesting concept that oil reserves may be "replenishing themselves" and that it's being created by bacterial sources. We already know that bacteria can be made in the laboratory to produce oil of some sorts, so why not naturally as well?

I have books on motoring from the seventies that honestly said all the oil would be gone by the late 1990's, and in the late 1990's and early 2000's the days of the private motor vehicle would be over and public transport would be how we would all get around.
You could even see it in that greatest of Australian car movies, 1982's "Running On Empty", where the young guy says he's into cars because soon the fuel would be gone and we'd all be "driving around in electric wheel chairs".

I can honestly say I'm still surprised we are driving big cars with huge engines making a few hundred kilowatts and at the same time getting fuel economy figures to beat four cylinders from when we were growing up...

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Tom Tucker

Finally, a factual arguement, and this in particular. The scientists studying snow melt in the Arctic are all saying it's happening at the fastest rate in the history of the planet, not the history of mankind.

The natural heating and cooling you all speak of occurred over thousands of years prior to the industrial era. This is scientifically measurable and not some propaganda.

Whilst I agree there is a lot of sensationalist media surrounding this issue (apparently this July was the hottest in 4000 years), I'm not sure how people can say there is zero evidence when scientific journals with actual data are released all the time.

Its been mentioned a few times that global warming is somehow a money making scheme. Who do you think stands to profit most from denial? Surely it wouldn't be the oil, gas and mining companies who already hold huge vested interest, with the future of their profitability at stake?

Their is more gases coming out of the ground then what is coming out of the power station up the road from me all the time, we even have fire coming out of the ground at times as well from coal burning under the ground and I have even seen gas shooting from the ground once out in the bush, just poring out under high pressure like it would of been coming out of a foot wide pipe for about 3 weeks that I seen of it.
So the whole world with gases just coming out of the ground, I would think that's a hell of a lot, not to mention bush fires, Volcanos and all.

As for people making money out of global warming spin, sure I know a mate that is an extreme right wing liberal dude, that is pushing like hell to get all that the ALP was pushing for, as he was set to make a fortune out of it all and says it's the biggest money making thing in the history of the world and he wants to clean up, but he knows it will do bugger all to save the planet.
But it's the huge money from it all that he wanted and he was tearing out his hair ranting and raving that he could make a fortune out of it all.

The last Liberal leader M Turnbull knew their was huge massive amounts of money in it all and he was pushing like hell to try to bring it in, that he got the sack and if you know his history he is always at the forefront where their is a massive con job going on, that has ripped people off like you would not believe.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Oil exists in massive amounts...new tech means it's easier to get than in years past.
There is also the interesting concept that oil reserves may be "replenishing themselves" and that it's being created by bacterial sources. We already know that bacteria can be made in the laboratory to produce oil of some sorts, so why not naturally as well?

Because there's no new biomass moving down into the earth?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Oil exists in massive amounts...new tech means it's easier to get than in years past.
There is also the interesting concept that oil reserves may be "replenishing themselves" and that it's being created by bacterial sources. We already know that bacteria can be made in the laboratory to produce oil of some sorts, so why not naturally as well?

I have books on motoring from the seventies that honestly said all the oil would be gone by the late 1990's, and in the late 1990's and early 2000's the days of the private motor vehicle would be over and public transport would be how we would all get around.
You could even see it in that greatest of Australian car movies, 1982's "Running On Empty", where the young guy says he's into cars because soon the fuel would be gone and we'd all be "driving around in electric wheel chairs".

I can honestly say I'm still surprised we are driving big cars with huge engines making a few hundred kilowatts and at the same time getting fuel economy figures to beat four cylinders from when we were growing up...

I ride a dirt bike and I have come across plenty of places we have oil in Australia and it's just been taped off because it's not viable at the moment etc.

We have some crappy thin grades of crude oil in Australia mainly and when I was investing in oil, they informed me they once got one of them low compression cars they had back in early 1900's even to run on some of it from out west QLD, so the story goes.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by castellan

I ride a dirt bike and I have come across plenty of places we have oil in Australia and it's just been taped off because it's not viable at the moment etc.

We have some crappy thin grades of crude oil in Australia mainly and when I was investing in oil, they informed me they once got one of them low compression cars they had back in early 1900's even to run on some of it from out west QLD, so the story goes.

There were articles back around 1990 with unmodified diesel vehicles like Pajeros and others running on crude virtually straight out of some wells out west. It's there...just a matter of the will to dig it up.

Also, interestingly, the French did some seismic testing out near the Barrier Reef (before green groups stopped it...I think it was during the Joh era), and the tests they did manage to do showed every indication of MASSIVE oil reserves out there under the reef...after all it was all coastline once about 14,000 years ago so why wouldn't there be oil under that sea like under other areas around the world?
People at the time said "It will never be drilled!!!!"...

And others at the time shrugged and said "Wait until oil hits $200 a barrel and see what happens..."

[Tom Tucker]

http://mobile.news.com.au/technology...-1227493098122

[Cruzycuzz]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

You are quoting this guff from the Al Gore 'Hymn Sheet'.

The lands are NOT heating up & the ice is NOT melting overall.

In the Antarctica, for every bit of ice lost in one area there is more ice forming in another, & the media only show you the pictures of where ice has been lost. This cycling has been going on for eons.

In the Arctic, there has been a very slight decrease in temperatures & an accompanying increase in ice for at least the last 2 years.

Methane, are you serious ? How can man cause an increase or decrease to that ?

The world is not warming, so they had to change their stance from 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. The climate has always seen change, so many people are now wise to this scam. They will need a new name for their religion to survive.

Years ago, in the 70s, we were being bombarded with so-called global cooling theories & the hole in the ozone layer, more BS. What will we be hearing in another 40 years ?

As I said earlier, please don't confuse 'carbon pollution' with real pollution, & yes, we will eventually run out of fossil fuel, but what has this got to do with any changes to the climate.

Dr Terry

Do you have any links I can look at?

[bobthebilda]

Dr Terry;5462370]You are quoting this guff from the Al Gore 'Hymn Sheet'
The lands are NOT heating up & the ice is NOT melting overall.
In the Antarctica, for every bit of ice lost in one area there is more ice forming in another, & the media only show you the pictures of where ice has been lost. This cycling has been going on for eons.
In the Arctic, there has been a very slight decrease in temperatures & an accompanying increase in ice for at least the last 2 years.
Methane, are you serious ? How can man cause an increase or decrease to that ?
The world is not warming, so they had to change their stance from 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. The climate has always seen change, so many people are now wise to this scam. They will need a new name for their religion to survive.
Years ago, in the 70s, we were being bombarded with so-called global cooling theories & the hole in the ozone layer, more BS. What will we be hearing in another 40 years ?
As I said earlier, please don't confuse 'carbon pollution' with real pollution, & yes, we will eventually run out of fossil fuel, but what has this got to do with any changes to the climate.
Dr Terry

Mate, I think its dangerous for anyone to be getting their scientific data from Thats Life magazines. You are probably correct that the weather in Australia has been cooler recently than it was 8 months ago, but that is merely the difference between summer and winter.

Theres some very good charts out there, that show what the Industrial revolution is changing things in the world (and I will leave that a very generic statement). Take for example the Keeling curve, which measures the level of C02 levels in the Atmosphere (and is back dated using ice core measurements) (as per below)

https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/ke..._800k_zoom.png

No one doubts that the earth has gone thru different warming and cooling phases over millions of years, but mans current ability to extract stored carbon from the the earth, and throw it into the atmosphere is without precedence.

I also dont dispute your theory that in a given part of the world, in a given time of the year, that there may be more ice coverage than there has been previously. But not all ice is created equally. Sea ice, a foot thick can form quite easily, but will also disappear quite quickly too. An ice sheet that is 1 km thick, million of square kilometres, is still going to be covering millions of square kilometres next year, but may just be 995 metres thick.

Any change from Global warming to Climate Change, hasnt been done to try and change the goal posts, its simply a result of a better understanding (as this is how science has evolved over hundreds of years). The world is just not going to warm up on average (global warming), but this warming is going to cause more heavy rainfalls in certain parts of the world, some will be have worse droughts, some will have worse hurricanes and cyclones (Climate change). etc etc.

And the fact is, that I know its going to happen, but in order to maintain my place in society, i have to burn 5000 litres of fuel each year, i have to use coal generated electricity by the bucketload etc etc.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Mate, I think its dangerous for anyone to be getting their scientific data from Thats Life magazines. You are probably correct that the weather in Australia has been cooler recently than it was 8 months ago, but that is merely the difference between summer and winter.

Theres some very good charts out there, that show what the Industrial revolution is changing things in the world (and I will leave that a very generic statement). Take for example the Keeling curve, which measures the level of C02 levels in the Atmosphere (and is back dated using ice core measurements) (as per below)

https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/ke..._800k_zoom.png

No one doubts that the earth has gone thru different warming and cooling phases over millions of years, but mans current ability to extract stored carbon from the the earth, and throw it into the atmosphere is without precedence.

I also dont dispute your theory that in a given part of the world, in a given time of the year, that there may be more ice coverage than there has been previously. But not all ice is created equally. Sea ice, a foot thick can form quite easily, but will also disappear quite quickly too. An ice sheet that is 1 km thick, million of square kilometres, is still going to be covering millions of square kilometres next year, but may just be 995 metres thick.

Any change from Global warming to Climate Change, hasnt been done to try and change the goal posts, its simply a result of a better understanding (as this is how science has evolved over hundreds of years). The world is just not going to warm up on average (global warming), but this warming is going to cause more heavy rainfalls in certain parts of the world, some will be have worse droughts, some will have worse hurricanes and cyclones (Climate change). etc etc.

And the fact is, that I know its going to happen, but in order to maintain my place in society, i have to burn 5000 litres of fuel each year, i have to use coal generated electricity by the bucketload etc etc.

Most of what you say is valid, however in my view, as an Engineer, most of these charts showing temperature rises over the century are very 'iffy' at best, given the fact that they are talking in decimal points of a degree & man has only been able to measure to that accuracy in the last century, before that forget it.

Add to that the many documented cases (even here in Australia) of historic records being manipulated to agree with the consensus of a few.

We had a mini Ice Age inside the last millennium, surely then we should be seeing some rises in world temperatures.

I don't believe that Climate Change theory has gone thru the same rigorous proof & evidence routine that other theories have gone thru over history.

BTW, & I don't know where you live, but I've lived in Sydney for most of my life & nobody will convince me that the last few most have been the warmest of those months on record.

Climate will always change, the discussion is, how much is influenced by man.

As I said earlier, I think we have a lot more to worry about than CO2.

Dr Terry