No wonder police get a bad name....

[David See]

First up I want to say that I admire the police. They do a job I could never do and they protect us as much as they can from the ever-growing scum of society.

In my profession of nearly 20 years I have worked tightly with Police and, on occasion, have even worked FOR them as a photographer whilst on the job with them. I have found that there are 5% that are unbelievably professional, friendly and respectful (I call them "switched on") and let you go about your work without incident. They know the deal.

However: I had an experience with a Higway Patrol officer last week that made me realise why some should, indeed, be called pigs.

I cannot remember how many news jobs I have done as a photographer that revolved around the F3 Freeway from Hornsby to Newcastle. It would be hundreds. In all that time, for all those jobs I have done, I have NEVER been booked for parking on the side of the Freeway in my professional capacity. But last week, I was.

There was a bus accident that I was called to take photos of just south of Morriset on the F3. Using my experience, I knew I shouldn't park on the freeway itself due to the obvious dangers, so I parked my car on the very wide concrete shoulder of the off-ramp where there was plenty of room to do so. This concrete area would have had to have been two cars wide at least, maybe more. I got out of the car, kitted up, which included a reflective vest and identification, and crossed to the accident scene which was right at the exit. I was there for perhaps 5 minutes but my presence obviously offended one police officer who confronted me asking "who pays your bills?" Knowing what he meant, I thought he was kidding, so I smiled and said "not me". He responded by explaining that parking on the freeway was a $185 fine and I should move the car immediately.

Realising he was serious, I agreed to move the car (somewhat shocked), I took the last couple of shots that I needed, packed up and drove off without comment. I thought no more of it. I felt he got the dirts with me for some reason, had his spit and that was it.

A week later the company got the fine in the mail.

Now this got on my goat for several reasons.

(1) I was there in a professional capacity, as were the several tow-trucks
(2) I was parked safely, well off the freeway, with warning lights flashing
(3) I was professionally kitted up as outlined/requested by the RTA when working on the freeway
(4) He warned me, I moved on, and yet still got the fine
(5) There was no danger whatsoever where I parked
(6) There were several other officers that that took no notice of me whatsoever
(7) There were several tow-trucks, onlookers/bystanders who, because they were assisting, didn't get fined
(8) The traffic using the off-ramp was being slowed by council workers so I was in no dnager of obstructing or being hit by a car

Ok, some of you do-gooders out there will say I broke the law, but never before has an officer confronted me (or anyone else I know for that matter) and booked them for parking on the freeway, whilst working or not. What a stupid law anyway, when there are many reasons why you may HAVE to stop on the freeway.

I rang the officer in charge who I have known for some years and he agreed that it was, indeed, an over-reaction. He suggested I write in and complain.

To me, this whole incident was a knee-jerk reaction by an inexperienced officer obviously low on his booking count for the week.

So: To all you travellers with kids in the car about to vomit or who need to go to the toilet urgently:

Pull of the freeway before you stop and hope the kids can hold on.

[Keepleft]

David See writes:-

A week later the company got the fine in the mail.

Now this got on my goat for several reasons.
(1) I was there in a professional capacity, as were the several tow-trucks

In what capacity David, Coroners office, media??

(2) I was parked safely, well off the freeway, with warning lights flashing

Opinion though; we have had cars impacted on the off ramp.

I have an issue with police stopping people on the southbound on-ramp (speed/RBT/Rego/License), right shoulder, sometimes left - that I will take up later through the natural course of events, to stop that practice - for obvious reasons, and to do with Workcover.

(3) I was professionally kitted up as outlined/requested by the RTA when working on the freeway

The reflective safety vests (same as every single car in Europe has) WHEN it carries a Corporate logo gives some legal, and indemnity insurance protection.

(4) He warned me, I moved on, and yet still got the fine.

This part is mean and not in spirit, one the face of it.

(5) There was no danger whatsoever where I parked

This is much the same as Point 2. Again the painted island is NOT a place to park, this is what your describing. The emergency shoulders on the left are effectively no stopping zones.

(6) There were several other officers that that took no notice of me whatsoever

One bloke does his job.

(7) There were several tow-trucks, onlookers/bystanders who, because they were assisting, didn't get fined

That you know of.

(8) The traffic using the off-ramp was being slowed by council workers so I was in no dnager of obstructing or being hit by a car

Nice of them, sometimes they don't comprehend the need to forwarn taking into account speeds exceeding 110km/h.

Ok, some of you do-gooders out there will say I broke the law, but never before has an officer confronted me (or anyone else I know for that matter) and booked them for parking on the freeway, whilst working or not.

Stopping on an emergency shoulder is an offence, indeed it is worldwide in countries contracting the UN Convention on Road Traffic. In the same manner slow moving agricultural vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians are also not permitted, even on the shoulders.

What a stupid law anyway, when there are many reasons why you may HAVE to stop on the freeway.

In an emergency only, answering a mobile phone doesn't cut it, nor does going for a wee (also an offence in relation to other law) etc.

I rang the officer in charge who I have known for some years and he agreed that it was, indeed, an over-reaction. He suggested I write in and complain.

Which Highway Patrol? Tell me, and I'll take it further.

To me, this whole incident was a knee-jerk reaction by an inexperienced officer obviously low on his booking count for the week.

That is your opinion David, you don't know the officer or her experience.

So: To all you travellers with kids in the car about to vomit or who need to go to the toilet urgently: Pull off the freeway before you stop and hope the kids can hold on.

The word is 'emergency', meaning brake-down, attending to an urgent crash-scene. In any case, your explaining the painted island, yes??

[David See]

I understand that there will be a law-orientated view/argument of every comment I made, I expected and respect that. But there has always been the "gentleman's agreement" if you like, for situations such as this.

I was there representing the media as I have done so since 1988.

The thing is, this has never been a problem before and now suddenly it is. I just think it was taken too far, considering the circumstances.

I am not an idiot. I don't take unneccessary risks. I was parked on a very safe, wide left-hand shoulder of an off-ramp along with tow-trucks and others. I was dressed and identified appropriately as requested by the RTA in these circumstances. Traffic on the off-ramp would have been travelling no more than 40km/h. I know the tow-truck drivers, have asked them, and, no, they didn't get fined.

As the supervising officer said, it was, indeed, taken too far.

Here's a thought:

Perhaps the media should be put through a program with the Police like we are with the Rural Fire Service where we receive an ID and authentication to state we are versed in all aspects of protocol and safety with Bushfires.

Now there's a good idea.

[XA-Coupe]

Gotta be honest David, the only thing he did 'wrong' was to warn you and then send you the fine, although it's legal.
You have no legal right to park there and got busted..... it's tough love and I think he could have handled it better but I think it's time to take a Bex and lie down for awhile.

[Keepleft]

David,
Do you know which Patrol it was? Wyong?

The thing is, this has never been a problem before and now suddenly it is. I just think it was taken too far, considering the circumstances.

Australian standards of on-road behaviour, in relation to what we get away with daily in the breaking of safety oriented traffic law, sees us with a developed driving populace - holding a very poor approach to the 'whole of environment' driving task.

We have needed to clamp-down on offences such as this for decades, particularly if we are to ever increase speed restriction allowances. These so thought 'lesser offences' - will come into the fold for increased attention, if we do. (U-Turns on FWY is another major issue).

What interests me is that other traffic was parked in front and to the rear? of your vehicle - ON the LEFT emergency shoulder, AT the ACTUAL off-ramp, YET you were the only one singled out????

The HWP chap warned you to move the vehicle, and you say you took a couple of pics AFTER that, then moved the car. Mebbe, he or she doesn't like being duly ignored?? Or other issue at play??

It would be 'taken too far' IF other traffic was not ticketed (hence raises an issue), as you were in fact the only one ticketed, as you understand.

REM too - we have had fatals on the actual Nth off-ramp.

[David See]

I guess what I am saying is that I feel a warning would have been sufficient, especially as I was there in a professional capacity.

"We are not going to tolerate this behaviour any longer so please move on" would have done the trick.

Some police let us park on the side of the freeway to do our job while others don't. How does that send a consistent road-safety message? Can we even do jobs on the freeway any more?

I was parked on the left hand side of the road, about 200m into the off-ramp.

There was at least one tow-truck behind me.

What makes it even worse is that an ambulance officer made gestures to the police officer to remove me - it was a bus filled with disabled passengers and the scene was a little sensisitve which I took into account. Then the police officer then approached me and asked the question "who pays your bills?"

So in actual fact, until the ambulance officer pointed me out, this police officer had no interest in me.

So it felt like I was being singled out because I was seen as an "unneccessary professional" and therefore duly punished.

Have you ever heard of a tow-truck driver being booked for being stopped on the freeway - even though they are - as I was- there in a professional capacity?

Or is it that the media is still seen as unneccesary?

[Elks]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

David See writes:-
In what capacity David, Coroners office, media??

Opinion though; we have had cars impacted on the off ramp.


This part is mean and not in spirit, one the face of it.

Which Highway Patrol? Tell me, and I'll take it further.

That is your opinion David, you don't know the officer or her experience.

Keepleft you are obviously a Police Officer by your tone and way singling out points to attack. Clearly if the vehicle was parked in dangerous position it should be moved. This was instructed and complied with.

I have taken some of your quotes for refernce but my favorites are the last 3.

Showing that;
1. You agree that this action was mean.
2. You are willing to "take it further" which I read to be tell off some for suggetsing they write and complain.
3. You know the person who issued the ticket as the original post described the officer involved as a 'he' and you have directly stated 'Her'.

It is this overzealousness and protectiveness that causes community concern. It generally flows that the Police can be overly hasrh on petty things and let larger things (IMO) go.

I have been booked doing 64km/h in a 60 zone. Yes I was in the wrong but I consider that marginal. But when my factory was broken into and equipment stolen doors and windows damaged, it took the police 2 days to attend.

That is why people lose respect. It is a perception of fairness.

My 2c

[Hally]

As commented by Keepleft, I think the fact that you took further pictures after you were asked to move the car, and your comment (sounding cheeky or arrogant?) 'not me' when asked who paid your fines was your downfall. Respect goes a long way, especially in a stressful situation, and by the sounds of it you overstepped your mark.

[David See]

As I said, what about some training program for the media, as with the bush fire brigade where we then all officially know the risks and safety aspects? Our training with the bushies allows us to enter fire scenes because we have been taught the risks involved and how to react/act in emergency situations.

Those who don't attend the police program would not get the benefits of things such as authorised stopping on the freeway, amongst other benefits, for example.

[Keepleft]

David See wrote -

I guess what I am saying is that I feel a warning would have been sufficient, especially as I was there in a professional capacity.

In your circumstance, owing that you did the safety bit as trained, then yes, a warning should have sufficed.

Some police let us park on the side of the freeway to do our job while others don't.

More chance the Highway Patrol doing this, than of course GD's.

How does that send a consistent road-safety message?

It doesn't help, the action must be, or should be uniform.

Can we even do jobs on the freeway any more?

Yes, and no. Various road use regulations (Traffic & Safety Mgmt) regulations come into play.

I am wandering if an approach to Police Media or State Patrol Commander, or the Police Ministers media liason person would help clarify.

A get together to create 'protocols'.

I was parked on the left hand side of the road, about 200m into the off-ramp. There was at least one tow-truck behind me.

Right.

What makes it even worse is that an ambulance officer made gestures to the police officer to remove me - it was a bus filled with disabled passengers and the scene was a little sensisitve which I took into account. Then the police officer then approached me and asked the question "who pays your bills?"

So THIS is the initiating factor of your ticketing, still a warning should have sufficed in my view, a word at the scene to the HWP chap to clarify what you'd do and not, and that you'd move the car IF he really requires it.

So in actual fact, until the ambulance officer pointed me out, this police officer had no interest in me. So it felt like I was being taught a lesson because I was there, possibly taking pictures of disabled people being loaded onto stretchers.

Dignity of injured survivors, paras concerned with lessening elevated stress levels, and an assumtion you'd take Ogrish-gore type pics.

Answer would be to notify such your professionalisim next time, and that you'd not?? target incapacitated persons for media spreads. What with privacy and dignity concerns etc.

This raises issues for your field of work, that you need to clarify through the channels, with media associations assisting. The public need to know what it can expect by way of news coverage of similar crash events.

[David See]

Originally Posted by Hally

As commented by Keepleft, I think the fact that you took further pictures after you were asked to move the car, and your comment (sounding cheeky or arrogant?) 'not me' when asked who paid your fines was your downfall. Respect goes a long way, especially in a stressful situation, and by the sounds of it you overstepped your mark.

Please read my first post. I think you will get the hint that perhaps I am overflowing with respect.

I thought the police officer was joking (I have a friendly relationship with most of them here), hence my tongue-in-cheek comment. I wasn't rude. I apologised, told him I thought he was joking and said I would move my vehicle.

In hindsight, his question "who pays your bills" was dis-respectful and smart-arsed to say the least and I might as well have not rushed off because he was going to fine me anyway.

[Kryton]

did you think for one second you were singled out because they didnt want the media there taking photos of a crashed bus full disabled people?
im willing to bet $100 thats the real reason you got told to leave, and when you didnt, you got a ticket.
ever see those shows where the media gets attack because they wont bugger off when they're told too?

[amisupposed2b]

Wow, quite the arguement going down over here.

In my opinion David, although incorrect, did infact try his best to do what he believed to be the right thing.

I don't think it is expected that everyone know, every single on road law there is. And david being in his trade for 20 years and never being told that what he does is wrong, raises the arguement of :

"Who's fault is it truly is in consideration to avalibility of the law?"

Is david meant to ring a legal advisor/solicitor/barrister etc for every single time he pulls over to check if its legal?


But in the end its I personally see it as :

" A good ol' aussie fair go, or a coal-in-***-and-out-comes-diamond formal perception of the situation "

myts :

I have been booked doing 64km/h in a 60 zone. Yes I was in the wrong but I consider that marginal. But when my factory was broken into and equipment stolen doors and windows damaged, it took the police 2 days to attend.

Yeh, sometimes you gotta argue about where are they when you really need em?

[David See]

Originally Posted by davway

did you think for one second you were singled out because they didnt want the media there taking photos of a crashed bus full disabled people?
im willing to bet $100 thats the real reason you got told to leave, and when you didnt, you got a ticket.

But I did leave and when I got back to my car took a couple of pics back toward the scene. I still left as requested.

We also have rules and regulations/expectations in our profession. There are no medals for showing disabled people being loaded into ambulances. For this reason we stand back in sensitive situations like this and shoot from a distance as I did.

We have got dick heads driving our 50km/h street at 90km/h every day and can rarely get a highway car here to get them doing something so obviosly dangerous. And I get a ticket even though I was doing my job carefully and safely as I have done so for years.

Work it out.

[Keepleft]

MYTS wrote: -

Keepleft you are obviously a Police Officer by your tone and way singling out points to attack.

No. My referencing discussionary 'points' is the legal influence inherent me:-)

Clearly if the vehicle was parked in dangerous position it should be moved. This was instructed and complied with.

yes, after xx event per David post.

I have taken some of your quotes for refernece but my favorites are the last 3.

K.

Showing that;
1. You agree that this action was mean.

The action, on David having clarified things, would have been better served by warning.

2. You are willing to "take it further" which I read to be tell off some for suggesting they write and complain.

I'd be quite happy to approach that office in person, so they know of the discussion, and to seek general clarification of whay media may and may not do. David has clarified things since you wrote this, and I've further responded, so the point is irrelevant.

3. You know the person who issued the ticket as the original post described the officer involved as a 'he' and you have directly stated 'Her'.

A Shim?? Whom I know in this world is a non-issue here.

It is this overzealousness and protectiveness that causes community concern.

You mean in relation to what 'offences' exactly?

It generally flows that the Police can be overly harsh on petty things and let larger things (IMO) go.

Per directly above, which - can you give examples, aside from 'speed' below.

I have been booked doing 64km/h in a 60 zone. Yes I was in the wrong but I consider that marginal.

Eery 5km/h over makes a difference, remember?? I am in some sympathy with youo here, but ze law iz ze law with this stuff.

But when my factory was broken into and equipment stolen doors and windows damaged, it took the police 2 days to attend.

These are matters for each state. In this case I am ONLY concerned with NSW. Your story is an appalling one, but I sadly expect typical in some situations, what with police numbers etc.

Bear in mind though, that whilst over the last decade or so, we have seen real numbers of NSW Highway Patrol reduce from levels employed in the 1980's AND we have seen these in that time come under GD Patrol Commander 'control', where they attend GD duties and white paper, we DO NEED a dedicated fulltime, mostly non GD highway patrol, our behaviours on the road, and our hideously poor attitude to driving are examples of why things *must*, and by christ *will* change in NSW with time.

That is why people lose respect. It is a perception of fairness.

Per above, I agree David, because he used the safety training items, a 'talk' would have sufficed. Per my response to him above - media need to have talks with police and emergency services, antother job for David to attend or have carried out.


Amisupposed2B wrote: -

Is david meant to ring a legal advisor/solicitor/barrister etc for every single time he pulls over to check if its legal?

No, BUT we are to obey the rules of the road. It is up to us to make the VERY DIFFICULT effort at downloading a copy of *your states driver handbook* and read up on them. Or, visit a registry and do the same, 'purchase'.

NEW NATIONAL RULES are due this year, including some impacting parking.

[fastapasta]

I knew this girl who police followed her home from work speed test, breath test then found some minor thing and defected her car.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by fastapasta

I knew this girl who police followed her home from work speed test, breath test then found some minor thing and defected her car.

Mate, thats just terrible - that poor poor girl - what was this defect do you know???

[David See]

I bet my bottom dollar there will be NO national advertising campaign stating there are new NATIONAL road rules approaching (including parking fines where you can lose points)....

Just like a lot of new rules. No one knows about them until they are booked for breaking them.

Maybe the government needs to supply, free of charge, every licenced driver with the new laws in book form. Get them to sign for it using registered post so there is no argument they "didn't know" the new rules.

But, then again, making the current rules absolutely clear might cost the Govt more than the cost of printing, huh?

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by David See

I bet my bottom dollar there will be NO national advertising campaign stating there are new NATIONAL road rules approaching (including parking fines where you can lose points)....

Just like a lot of new rules. No one knows about them until they are booked for breaking them.

Maybe the governmanet needs to supply, free of charge, every licenced driver with the new laws in book form. But, then again, that might cost them more than the cost of printing, huh?

David, the Australian Road Rules were kicked off by Paul Keating back in 1993, when the first BIG lot were finalised and gazetted in December 1999, each states transport agency did post flyers on the new 'key' changes.

Since then we have had regular rule updates, these are then automatically added, with varying quality of the information supplied, via each jurisdictions primary driver manual.

In NSW, its "The Road Users' Handbook";-
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...uh_english.pdf

WA's "Drive Safe", like RTA's book above, is also available in MP3 format. See my Sig for their Pdf crash scene text, but this link below is the MP3 version of same pdf in my Sig:-
http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/...safe_part9.mp3

In an ideal world, - what do we want in relation to brushing-up, handbooks sent out at each license renewal? Bear in mind the millions holding licenses, and take into account those that would bin the costly items as mere junk mail.

On that basis, the license holder needs to make the effort to brush-up, every year or three - or face infringement.

The open can of beer thing below- well!

[Hybrid34]

Even though you were in the wrong, for something as minute as that, along with you following proceudures (not meleriy parking your car up running across the road to snap pictures), the coppa was just an arrogant power hungry person...
I've come across very very nice policemen/women who want to help me out in situations, OR if i have done something really small that is just that little bit illegal
eg(having an open can of beer , drinking it in a carpark with a mate, they say just finish the can off n leave it at that), rather than giving you a ticket on the spot,
Unfortunalty for those people on here who are the go-gooders, theres a line between having a smile n saying, "just move your car for saftey reasons".....and "move your car, and im going to give you a ticket aswell"...

soceity these days,....full of power hungry people.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by fastapasta

I knew this girl who police followed her home from work speed test, breath test then found some minor thing and defected her car.

This is what I mean by petty.

I acknowledge you said it was terrible.

[Elks]

Off course if David had parked his vehicle off the freeway and walked down the ramp he could also have been booked as pedestrians are not allowed on a freeway.

[brodfloyd]

david, my sympathies. I totally agree with you. Your complaint isnt with the police, its with this policeman.
I like you have the upmost respect for the police force and have worked hand in hand with them on many occasions.

and again like you have once been burned by an officer who took things too far.
Much like you, i was in the wrong unknowingly and whilst complying immediately to the officers commands I was treated in a very distressing/disgusting manner.

Thankfully also, when my brother got into some trouble for some more serious traffic violations, the police involved were compassionate but firm, punishing him severely, but not as much as they could have if they had wished to complicate his life further. This taught him a very valuable lesson and now that he has his licence back he is a far better driver. It just shows there are 2 sides to the coin.

Unfortunately there is not much you can do. I hope that your complaint gets handled sympathetically. fortunately the officer I had an altercation with was fired from the force a short time later, so although i didnt get my fine refunded i felt somewhat vindicated. Remember there is always something you could get booked for. I remember a report a couple of years ago about how nearly all cars on the road would be defected if the absolute letter of the law was inforced. Thankfully, it isnt.

I now covertly video/audio my experiences (on the mobile, when stopped) when i am pulled over incase i ever get a repeat, and do you know what? ive only ever had great experiences as 95% of the police in this world are great blokes doing the right thing.

If automatically everyone was booked for every law that they broke, I dont think anyone would have a licence or not be in prison and the poor house simultaniously. it is unfortunate that some people have problems with disgression and humility.



ps, Dont worry about keyboard warriors/heroes like keepleft and co, no matter what you say they will always have a point by point rebuttal/reply and a group of followers to back them up. Dont dignify their rubbish with a response, they thrive on it. I bet in writing this i will now get a great point by point rundown of why what i have just said is wrong.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by David See

Or is it that the media is still seen as unneccesary?

I cant see any reason to have media buzzing around an accident on Australia's busiest freeway, no. Seems like a accident waiting to happen, and a bit distastful when there are injured/dead people on the scene.

[Laminge]

Its all fun and games until someone looses and eye!

You all know my thoughts such is life

[David See]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

I cant see any reason to have media buzzing around an accident on Australia's busiest freeway, no. Seems like a accident waiting to happen, and a bit distastful when there are injured/dead people on the scene.

Everyone else on this planet calls it NEWS, buddy. Has happened for many years and will continue to do so. Informing the public. It's what we do.

"We make it, you watch it".

[colossus]

Well I'm a public servant - a manager in the public transport industry - and on occasions get called out to major accident/incident scenes and am often one of the first to arrive. Twice I have been booked by the police - once for parking, once for using a T3 lane (for 50 metres) - both times whilst acting in a professional capacity to attend to injured members of the public. I have never appealed either fine and just payed them and copped the points but sometimes you have to wonder in what spirit these fines are given.

[Bossxr8]

There's always one knob whos a stickler for the rules and takes it too far, and its these types of people that give the rest a bad name. What happened to common sense.

[David See]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There's always one knob whos a stickler for the rules and takes it too far, and its these types of people that give the rest a bad name. What happened to common sense.

Couldn't have said it better!

[David See]

Originally Posted by colossus

Well I'm a public servant - a manager in the public transport industry - and on occasions get called out to major accident/incident scenes and am often one of the first to arrive. Twice I have been booked by the police - once for parking, once for using a T3 lane (for 50 metres) - both times whilst acting in a professional capacity to attend to injured members of the public. I have never appealed either fine and just payed them and copped the points but sometimes you have to wonder in what spirit these fines are given.

How can anyone afford these days to just "cop the points"? It's too easy to lose them.