Attention stockoau: 4l + PD pics!

[private9]

This is for stockoau, as well as anyone else interested.

Some pretty detailed pics of a PD blower mounted to both an EF & AU 4l.

[AU2PWR]

Well .. Hope this wasnt our other mate the other day .. THere you go dude .. Done ! nice work Just ..

[AU2PWR]

The Blower Unit looks like a Bloody Gattling Gun !

[StealthAu]

Thanks mate, deffinetly getting some ideas :

[StealthAu]

Any idea of what blower that is on the AU?

[private9]

Originally Posted by stockoau

Any idea of what blower that is on the AU?

The EF is definitely a Whipple, and I'm pretty sure on the AU it's a Yella Terra charger.

I love that in the first pic of the EF, to the untrained eye, it looks like a standard engine bay - very sleepish!

The AU kit is quoted as doing 160rwkw, which IMO is a bit limp compared to turbo options out there.

[private9]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

Well .. Hope this wasnt our other mate the other day .. THere you go dude .. Done ! nice work Just ..

I'm pretty sure it's not the same dude. The EF has apparently been this way for many years, the other dude sounded like it was just happening going by some of his posts.

[AU2PWR]

160 .. Is that all .. Jesus , thats low as ..

Arent Whipple and yellaterra the same ?

[sly]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

Well .. Hope this wasnt our other mate the other day .. THere you go dude .. Done ! nice work Just ..

Speaking of that post the other day...

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

StockoAu , Capa has Photos up of their PD kits , and If you PM Matt@yellaTerra , he can explain how the PD kits for the I6 are coming along .

...is only half right. YellaTerra is on the money, but in CAPA-speak, "PD" means Powerdyne, which is centrifugal (ie belt-driven turbo), not positive-displacement.

As for 160RWKW being weak, don't forget that the positive-displacement blower makes boost from idle, so average power is higher overall than the 160RWKW peak suggests. It's probably running a lazy 5-6psi and making the best part of 500Nm at the flywheel from 1500 to over 4000rpm. Very nice for the street, and likely still running a stock fuel system.

How are the manifolds though? Would cyls 1 & 6 starve?

[Eu-GenixX]

if there is boost i wouldn't think starving cylinders would be a problem.. as the pressure level should level overall...??

[Eu-GenixX]

oh.. and does anyone know what sorta coin would be involved for this sort of setup?

[FRDGAL]

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

oh.. and does anyone know what sorta coin would be involved for this sort of setup?

Was going to ask the same question. Interested to know the costs for this setup on the AU.

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by sly

Speaking of that post the other day... ...is only half right. YellaTerra is on the money, but in CAPA-speak, "PD" means Powerdyne, which is centrifugal (ie belt-driven turbo), not positive-displacement.

As for 160RWKW being weak, don't forget that the positive-displacement blower makes boost from idle, so average power is higher overall than the 160RWKW peak suggests. It's probably running a lazy 5-6psi and making the best part of 500Nm at the flywheel from 1500 to over 4000rpm. Very nice for the street, and likely still running a stock fuel system.

How are the manifolds though? Would cyls 1 & 6 starve?

I reckon they would, the manifold needs to be of a larger volume to fix this.

[blackers10]

id say if you can weld this setup looks cheap and nasty..(unless you polished or painted some parts)

if you cant weld.. could get $$

but then you can probably go a bit more performance orientated on the manifold as it looks almost restrictive ..
but spose gotta work with what space you have eh

[FGII-XR6]

do you know of anyone doing these commercially?

[Mechan1k]

AFAIK Geoff from Snort performance is working on a setup at the moment for the AU I6s.

Hmmmm ... all that torque from near idle throughout the entire rev-range ... suits me perfectly ... especially mated to a 4.8L I6 motor ... and straight gas too.

[Eu-GenixX]

i'd decided against the idea of a capa or raptor kit..... but the idea of these could be very interesting...

[StealthAu]

I think for the setup I am looking for the Kenne Bell 1.5L would be the go, only problem is they're a bit over priced here, might email a mate in the states.

[InfernoSR]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

160 .. Is that all .. Jesus , thats low as ..

Arent Whipple and yellaterra the same ?

Whipple is a type, Yella Terra is a brand...

And 160 is pretty poor really...

[sly]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

do you know of anyone doing these commercially?

There have been hints dropped in the site sponsor forums that Bluepower may have a Kenne Belle kit under development - no hints yet as to when or how much. Yella Terra have been doing some work as well on a 3-staged offering:

1. Non-intercooled Eaton M90 kit
2. Intercooled Eaton M90 kit
3. Intercooled Whipple kit

The last I heard was that work was progressing but there had not yet been any approval for production, so Matt couldn't suggest when it might be available. YT's stealth Whipple kit for the Boss 260/290 is around $10K drive-in/drive-out through Repco. My own expectation (and I must stress that it is only a guess, I don't know anything that others don't) is that the YT PD kits for I6's would cover a range from $7K to $10K drive-in/drive-out as well.

Our mate from the other post says he's spent over $12K and has a setup that is emissions compliant and engineer certified at 10psi. I'm not sure if this includes his 2nd motor with strengthened internals though.

As Mechan1k says, Snort have been looking at supercharging for a while. I saw a listing on ebay recently by Snort for a new, unused Paxton head unit, this is similar to a Vortech ie centrifugal a la Raptor etc. Not sure if this indicates that Geoff has completed development or gone in a different direction, he's putting a lot of effort into his intercooling plenum.

So the bottom line is, there isn't a commercially-available complete PD kit for the I6 today. There may be something eventually for those willing to wait. There might be an opening in the market for someone with:

• an interest in forced induction and Ford performance
• a workshop in a semi-rural location
• contacts who could help him source an ex-Taxi as a cheap development mule

to put something together if he has any spare time...

[private9]

Originally Posted by sly

Speaking of that post the other day... ...is only half right. YellaTerra is on the money, but in CAPA-speak, "PD" means Powerdyne, which is centrifugal (ie belt-driven turbo), not positive-displacement.

As for 160RWKW being weak, don't forget that the positive-displacement blower makes boost from idle, so average power is higher overall than the 160RWKW peak suggests. It's probably running a lazy 5-6psi and making the best part of 500Nm at the flywheel from 1500 to over 4000rpm. Very nice for the street, and likely still running a stock fuel system.

How are the manifolds though? Would cyls 1 & 6 starve?

The AU was at 5psi, standard fuel system. There is a water injection kit available to run a touch more boost, but really that kit wouldn't be capable of much more without decent charge cooling.

I still say that for what this would cost 160rwkw is weak, especially given there wouldn't be a whole lot more potential in that particular kit.

[superroo]

Originally Posted by private9

I still say that for what this would cost 160rwkw is weak, especially given there wouldn't be a whole lot more potential in that particular kit.

This all depends on the head unit used.
At around the boost mentioned, i think the M90 would be starting to run out of puff and not have much more in it on our motor.

But, with the research i have done, using whipple W140AX, as used in the bosses, 20ish psi of boost is possible from these blowers on these motor without over stressing/over reving the blower. That was with the blowers max rpm just over the engine 6000rpm redline.

I make mention that i will eventually be putting a twin screw, hopefull a whipple blower onto my inline 6, but it is not going to be any time soon. I hoping to run a built engine with the W140AX pumping out 20psi. So a lot of boost, a lot of power, and a long way down the road before it is done.

Cheers

[superroo]

The other thing to say, which people need to keep in mind about the whipple, is that it makes boost at what ever rev range. Sizeable boost at any revs.

So while peak power may not be as high as other kits avalible, you will have a massive, square torque band that will make up for the lack of peak power.

Basically remember, power is your top speed, torque is how fast you get there.

Cheers

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by superroo

This all depends on the head unit used.
At around the boost mentioned, i think the M90 would be starting to run out of puff and not have much more in it on our motor.

But, with the research i have done, using whipple W140AX, as used in the bosses, 20ish psi of boost is possible from these blowers on these motor without over stressing/over reving the blower. That was with the blowers max rpm just over the engine 6000rpm redline.

I make mention that i will eventually be putting a twin screw, hopefull a whipple blower onto my inline 6, but it is not going to be any time soon. I hoping to run a built engine with the W140AX pumping out 20psi. So a lot of boost, a lot of power, and a long way down the road before it is done.

Cheers

20PSI? Good luck with that one.

[sly]

Originally Posted by BLUEPRINT

Whipple is a type, Yella Terra is a brand...

And 160 is pretty poor really...

Whipple is a brand as well. A "Terra Charger" is something else, badge-engineered, and could be an Eaton or Whipple... sorta like a "Barina" is a Suzuki Swift, or an Opel Corsa, or a Daewoo Kalos LOL. I'm glad Ford had the good sense to call their Korean shightbucket "Festiva" instead of cheapening the Fiesta name...

[superroo]

Originally Posted by stockoau

20PSI? Good luck with that one.

That is done assuming that you can get the required amount of air needed into the blower.

Here is the theory:

Real engine size = 3984cc

A blower only has to fill half of that for one turn of the crank so

Engine size = 1992cc

1 turn of the W140AX produces 2300cc per revolution, and it's max rpm is 16000

Max blower speed
Max engine speed = Drive ratio

16000
6500 = 2.4615

Blower size x drive ratio = Moved air

2300cc x 2.46 = 5658cc

Moved air – engine size = excess air

5658cc – 1992cc = 3666cc

Excess air
Engine size = boost (bar)

3666
2000 = 1.833 bar

bar x 14.508 = psi

1.833 x 14.508 = 26.59 psi

Now, in just redoing these calcualtions then, i've realised that blower cfm doesn't come into the picture, but that shouldn't lower max boost by much.

Also realise, that on "kev's_blown_XR8_ute", running the whipple blower he is running 13psi boost with the blower maxed out, with an entire 1.4L more engine than what we have. So with 1.4L less to fill, boost will have to increase. So, 20psi is a fair call

Cheers

[sly]

Originally Posted by superroo

This all depends on the head unit used.
At around the boost mentioned, i think the M90 would be starting to run out of puff and not have much more in it on our motor.

The M90 would be running out of puff at 5psi???

Check the blower calculator at http://www.sprintex.com.au/. But just in case you don't have Excel or OOo to run it, it calculates that an M90 geared to run to its maximum 14,000rpm at a crank speed of 6,000rpm on an I6, would produce 13psi of boost and 332kW at the flywheel.

Like the Whipple, the M90 would produce that boost from off idle to the redline.

[superroo]

Ok, i stand corrected on the M90. The figures i had in mind were written oddly where i read it, and i commited the wrong number to memory. However it would still run out of puff before the whipple, and also in my opinion it is a inferior design of blower (roots vs screw. I stand behind screw).
Please note : This comment is not designed to start an argument so please don't. It is a statement of opion only

Cheers

[sly]

Here are the same calcs for the M90:

Real engine size = 3984cc

A blower only has to fill half of that for one turn of the crank so

Engine size = 1992cc

1 turn of the M90 produces 1475cc per revolution, and it's max rpm is 14000

Max blower speed
Max engine speed = Drive ratio

14000
6000 = 2.33

Blower size x drive ratio = Moved air

1475cc x 2.33 = 3437cc

Moved air – engine size = excess air

3437cc – 1992cc = 1445cc

Excess air
Engine size = boost (bar)

1445
1992 = 0.725 bar

bar x 14.508 = psi

0.725 x 14.508 = 10.52 psi

Interesting... one of those calcs has to be wrong, and I can't see any mistakes in your logic. Maybe I'd better fire off an email to Sprintex!

Still, 10.5 is a bit more than 5psi, enough to be getting towards the limit of the stock internals.

[sly]

Originally Posted by superroo

Ok, i stand corrected on the M90. The figures i had in mind were written oddly where i read it, and i commited the wrong number to memory. However it would still run out of puff before the whipple, and also in my opinion it is a inferior design of blower (roots vs screw. I stand behind screw).
Please note : This comment is not designed to start an argument so please don't. It is a statement of opion only

Cheers

No worries mate... as you can see I've checked the figures too and found the blower calculator seems to be optimistic. Naturally the Whipple is better. The main advantage of the M90 is that it's cheap these days (ebay: $780 new, under $500 s/h) and is a good match to 4-litre stock engines. Someone able to fab up the intake themselves would be able to build up a 200-220RWKW car very cheaply with a fuel system upgrade and custom flash tune. It mightn't be what you want, but it would be pretty good bang for the bucks.