FWD in Large cars?

[Crazy Dazz]

Read some really strange comments lately, regarding the benefits of FWD over RWD.
Can someone knowledgeable explain what these benefits are, without resorting to clichés, urban myths, or gobbledegook, and without foaming at the mouth and insulting all RWD drivers.

I accept that in many ordinary circumstances a well-designed FWD is just as effective as RWD, especially with traction control, power steering etc, but I am still left asking why?
Yes, many European makers who have been doing FWD for 50 years are still streets ahead of Falcons in terms of handling, but I don’t see that as being due to FWD.

My XR4 is FWD, I love it to bits, and it works well, but turn off the DSC and it will spin it’s wheels of the line and be completely uncontrollable.

In a compact 4cyl, FWD saves weight and space, as it makes for a very compact package up front, and obviously there’s no tunnel or humps. Compare something like a Yaris to a 1970’s Corolla, and you can see just how far FWD packaging has come.
But as far as I can see, that is it’s only advantage? There are still many inherent obstacles to overcome, and I just don’t see the need for it in big cars.
Jump into a Camry/Aurion and you’ve still got a massive centre consul, so I’m not sure how much space you really gain in the front.
The majority of cars are already unbalanced to the front, and FWD simply exacerbates that, especially when the engine is pushed out in front of the front wheels. Contrary to what some believe, when you accelerate hard, most of the mass of the car is born by the back wheels. Which is why every race car, drag car, speedway car, etc is RWD. (Again, I accept that this is probably irrelevant for 90% of applications, I’m just making a point.)

I imagine that some weight is saved, even in a large car, by eliminating the tailshaft, and combining the gearbox and diff. Perhaps it also enables them to share components and development with their smaller stablemates?
Is it perhaps easier to assemble FWD?

Is it perhaps telling that the Americans (whose idea of a sports car is a Lounge Room powered by a 500ci V8) happily accept FWD for their large cars, but in Europe most of the large saloons are still RWD?

[DJM83]

I was always anti FWD till i bought one. IMO i think a FWD in the handling stakes (Standard) is alot better then a RWD car.
Also it seems RWD is used in most application where the power is higher ie falcon/commodore (although my XR5 almost has as much go, and some do.) i couldnt imagine a FWD V8 there wouldnt be much room not to mention driveshaft longevity, HSV Coupe4 anyone front drive system in that required smaller headers reducing power.
They both have there positives and negatives i guess.

But can we not turn this into a FWD bashing thread please

[Ben73]

RWD cars are still so popular because they are like racing cars and bring joy of driving... well that's what the manufactures like to say in their ads.

In everyday driving FWD is probably definably the best all rounder, you never even notice the difference between a RWD and a FWD and a AWD in normal driving conditions.
When I first got my licence I only drove FWD cars. One day I got in a RWD ute in the wet, and I drove it like I drove my FWD sedan... I ended up sideways turning right at the lights.
It's a lot harder to get sideways in a FWD and that's a good thing for the average driver who probably doesn't know how to correct oversteer.
AWD is also hard to get sideways in, but they generally use more fuel then a FWD, so FWD is probably the best for your average driver.

[JimNiki]

Isn't cost saving/fuel effieciency via weight saving 99% of the justification for FWD?

[Marquis 351]

I think could be a balance thing maybe? BMW have advertised in the past (in europe) That may have some truth to it. As BMW have sold a few cars to be fair. I Personaly would rather a RWD. Rather be pushed than pulled!

[dylancox]

Is FWD less likely to get bogged? Had the unfortunate experience once of doing a 3-point turn on a narrow dirt road and didnt notice that the sides of the road were thick mud covered with fresh grass. Needless to say, while reversing, somehow reversed a bit too quick (useless BA reverse gear that takes 3 seconds to engage and then thuds into reverse). Got back into forward gear and all I have is both rear wheels free spinning and creating a 6 metre mud shower. Tried putting wood under the rear wheels and just steam and burning rubber. Gave up and had to be pulled out by a mate's hilux.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by JimNiki

Isn't cost saving/fuel effieciency via weight saving 99% of the justification for FWD?

You'll also get more cabin room with FWD. For smaller cars it makes sense.

[Yellow_Festiva]

My thoughts on the reasons.

Costs less to make.
Weighs less when finished.
Less distance to transfer power means less loss of power.
Easier to keep driveline smooth due to less distance for power transfer.
Suits 98% of driving public.

[dannyhilton]

Every drive pattern has its advantages. Packaging, efficiency, manufacturing costs, reduced weight are why FWD works among others. It's also much better on ice/snow. FWD is also (IMHO) more predictable for the average driver, having turned a ute sideways on gravel with a simple push of the throttle, I'll be the first to say RWD can take some mastering. The fact that the majority of the car driving public isn't an enthusiast proves FWD is here to stay.

Glad you like your XR4. The Fiesta, and more so the XR4, has gone a long way to prove FWD can be fun!

[Bobman]

Ever driven a Taurus?

Torque steer is one thing I really hate on V6 FWD large sedans.

[AWD Chaser]

I would say FWD cars are more of a pita to work on. Usually the engine bay is so full, it's hard to get to anything...

Also, for bigger jobs, like a trans R&I - it's easier on a RWD...

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by DJM83

i couldnt imagine a FWD V8 there wouldnt be much room not to mention driveshaft longevity,

Cadillac Eldorado. 500 c.i. V8 -Fwd .

Personally, I do not like the concept of fwd. Torque steer is one reason, and the other is I like conventional things. Thats just me.

But fwd does have benefits.

[martinijosh]

To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves.

My car is a RWD, and all the sedans and hatches at work are FWD, they have **** all power but they still battle your hands on the steering wheel if accelerating mid corner.

RWD is a more effortless and comfortable drive I find and is kinder on tyre prices because bum draggers steer and power through the same wheels wearing out tyres prematurely.

FWD's advantages are as has been mentioned, cost saving and weight. You also don't lose as much power through the driveline.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves.

My car is a RWD, and all the sedans and hatches at work are FWD, they have **** all power but they still battle your hands on the steering wheel if accelerating mid corner.

RWD is a more effortless and comfortable drive I find and is kinder on tyre prices because bum draggers steer and power through the same wheels wearing out tyres prematurely.

FWD's advantages are as has been mentioned, cost saving and weight. You also don't lose as much power through the driveline.

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving i noticed NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
But yeah the more power you make the more most will torque steer though my car isnt too bad

[cheap]

There would be how many +300KW FWD cars being manufactured today?

[martinijosh]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving i noticed NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
But yeah the more power you make the more most will torque steer though my car isnt too bad

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving the is NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
No power you say eh?


Unless you consider 4 cylinder camry and corolla sedans, yaris hatch and i30 TDI to be powerful?

The i30s are the worst - all of these cars are automatics too...

[tranquilized]

FWD's benefits in small cars a well known and obvious, but I think fuel consumption is the main driving force behind the spread of FWD to larger cars.

In terms of FWD in large cars being unnecessary, I think the point is adopting FWD allows the large car to shrink while retaining interior space thereby reducing fuel consumption.

My memory is a bit sketchy here, but I'm pretty sure GM and/or Ford stated the case for GRWD, and RWD cars in general, diminished due to the US government tightening the CAFE standards again.

Anyway, the benefits of FWD are definitely there, but they're all practical and economic - nothing to do with driving pleasure or performance. (not knocking the many great and fun FWD cars out there)

[martinijosh]

I'm glad ford don't make any FWD sedans, oh wait: two of the most popular cars in their respective countries the mondeo and the taurus

NNNNOOOOOOO :P

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

Cadillac Eldorado. 500 c.i. V8 -Fwd .

Personally, I do not like the concept of fwd. Torque steer is one reason, and the other is I like conventional things. Thats just me.

But fwd does have benefits.

I don't like it either. I like having the control wheels and the drive wheels at opposing ends of the car.

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving i noticed NO difference what so ever.Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
But yeah the more power you make the more most will torque steer though my car isnt too bad

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving the is NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
No power you say eh?


Unless you consider 4 cylinder camry and corolla sedans, yaris hatch and i30 TDI to be powerful?

The i30s are the worst - all of these cars are automatics too...

The key part of the post has been highlighted for you. Commuting around town, at normal posted speed limits, with no aggressive driving. There would really be no difference. Getting up it for the rent however, would be a different story.

[MexicanBatman]

Having a decent fwd car is fun, like the aurion stock mid 14s on the 1/4, well it's fun till you want to drift the roundabout, then you realize thy are lame, and I'd rather power oversteer and have fun than be able to go faster through the mountain pass in a fwd...

Fwd are just cheaper to manufacture, and the layout is more friendly, my 02 magna had a boot big enough to put an 02 falcon in, and I had an astra hatch that swallowed a couch...

[wrongwaynorris]

To a "driver" as opposed to a vehicle steerer there are NO benefits whatsoever . Just how many purpose built racing cars have front wheel drive ? Thats right NONE . Theres a reason for that .

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

To a "driver" as opposed to a vehicle steerer there are NO benefits whatsoever . Just how many purpose built racing cars have front wheel drive ? Thats right NONE . Theres a reason for that .

Motorkhana specials are all FWD . 'cose they are quicker :-)

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

To a "driver" as opposed to a vehicle steerer there are NO benefits whatsoever . Just how many purpose built racing cars have front wheel drive ? Thats right NONE . Theres a reason for that .

pretty sure some of the fwd rally car handed the wrc cars a whipping on a tarmac stage recently...

personally, i prefer to drive a rwd because i find it more enjoyable, but i can definitly steer a fwd quicker

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

To a "driver" as opposed to a vehicle steerer there are NO benefits whatsoever . Just how many purpose built racing cars have front wheel drive ? Thats right NONE . Theres a reason for that .

Since when are we talking race cars?
Id love to see a car with similar power to my Focus thats RWD keep up around a tight track.

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

Unless you consider 4 cylinder camry and corolla sedans, yaris hatch and i30 TDI to be powerful?

The i30s are the worst - all of these cars are automatics too...

Sorry mate i edited my post after you quoted, i mis read But basing your FWD opinion on an automatic 4cyl probably isnt good. My focus is the best car ive had.
Go for a drive in a quaife equipped car and get back to me.

[chevypower]

In Australia, it makes little difference, go with whatever you prefer. The speed limits are so slow, and the weather provides nice driving all year around. In snow/ice, I will take FWD over RWD for just getting around. I have my F150 4x4 for positive traction and adverse conditions, but it doesn't help with stability or stopping on ice. My wife is looking at getting the new Hyundai Sonata 2.0T, and I think it would be a great car to drive. For ultimate RWD performance and handling, it's probably hard to go past the new Mustang 5.0. But a FWD car will kill it on ice.

[NAK302]

how come my post got deleted?

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I can only speak from the experience I have had with a corolla and a nissan pulsar, but I can't stand the torque steer in the front wheel drives.

Taking off from the lights does feel a bit more zippy and is great if you need to get the jump on a lane change, however accelerating around and out of a corner (in the models I drove) had me fighting the steering wheel like no tomorrow.

While not my cup of tea, they do have their merits, and there is an XR5T up here in Brisbane that is orange, lowered something fierce, and has enough power to rival my friends ZX6 road bike, from memory he said the XR5 was somewhere in the region of 500hp, and he seemed to be able to put it down fairly well.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Since when are we talking race cars?
Id love to see a car with similar power to my Focus thats RWD keep up around a tight track.

The only time you will run into trouble is if you lose traction. FWD had the directional control and power applied to the same wheels therefore you cannot "slide out the rear" while retaining steering as can be done with rear wheel drive.

This is not something that is a normal situation on sealed roads except when it is very wet. It is, however, not uncommon in rural areas where dirt roads are plentiful.

I have driven hundreds of thousands of kilometres on dirt roads in both RWD and FWD and FWD is perfectly ok provided you behave yourself and remember that if you do lose it on a corner then it is almost impossible to recover.

[mondo_broady]

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

I'm glad ford don't make any FWD sedans, oh wait: two of the most popular cars in their respective countries the mondeo and the taurus

NNNNOOOOOOO :P

to base your opinion on two old models with outdated technology...
please... there are plenty of popular RWD cars that were rubbish...

i own a current model XR5 Mondeo, but over the years I have also had various RWD models and i can say without a doubt there is no discernable difference in day to day driving situations.

as for torque steer under WOT... i run mods which give me approx. 150kw atw and in the 22,000kms i have driven this car i have experienced torque steer twice. i'm not saying this is true of all FWD models, but certainly for a large car, mine behaves quite well. you have to remember the majority of drivers will never be in a situation where torquesteer is an issue anyway.

now remembering the OP asked about the benifits of FWD LARGE cars (so forget your i30's and corrolla's etc...) and the fact mondeo is wider than a falcon and just 8cm shorter, i think i can comment on this. I also went from driving a falcon, to driving the mondeo.

there is more room in the front cabin of the mondeo than falcon because of the east/west arrangement. rear cabin room is about the same. there is far more room in the mondeo's boot. the fuel economy across the range is better. the mondeo's ride is better. it weighs less and that helps it stop better. in the case of the mondeo, the chassis seems to work better too.

the only negatives i can see are tyre wear and for RWD enthusiats, being able to do burnouts or "drift round a roundabout"...

trouble is when discussions on the merits of FWD occur with RWD proponents, it's a bit like

for the record, my XR5 is the best car i've ever owned.