Revamping the Falcon

[Polyal]

OK regardless of what we all want to believe, and until we have some more evidence that LiLPG and the TDi Tezz is going to save the day lets assume that Ford HQ has given the go ahead for the Falcon to continue past 2015...but it needs serious change.

The trend has been happening for a while but seems people are moving in large numbers to small/medium cars, lets just say its a number of factors contributing, not just fuel consumption. I mean why buy a falcon if all your doing is going to and from the shops or work right?

What would people think about the Falcon being split into two main series. G and XR.

The falcon would then adopt a Chrysler 300C type approach, bold, different etc to that of the generic small/medium car. Not necessarily retro just bold.

The G and XR series would then have the drivetrain options similar to what we have now, I4T, TDI, LiLPG, I6, I6T, and the XR8/G8E makes a return. There will be a few difference between G and XR, say for example no leather available on XR, want leather get a G...etc Or even limit the drivetrains, for example, TDi being only on G series and utes.

FPV remains the same as its good having someone else to split some of the developmental costs (in theory). Although their viability is "if'y" I mean the money spent on them could be used to enhance the high powered XR/G cars instead.

The Territory has to stay in order to make numbers off the platform work.

Difference here though is that it continues on its path but with the option of having LiLPG to fill the void of the wagon, maybe even drop the ride height to give it less of a SUV feel. LiLPG is only available in RWD and maybe look at limiting it to only TX, or better yet call it something else. Ford used to have a "country/outback" suspension option, this is just the reverse of that theory.

It seems the Falcon is in need of some distinction from the Focus and Mondeo for the average person. The falcon still serves a purpose over these cars as it can perform a wider range of functions, both practical and performance wise.

IMO the commodore is in the same boat aswell, but thats their problem.

This is naturally just a high level conceptual idea, lets try not getting bogged down on every little detail.

In summary the Falcon perhaps should be moving to a more focused product, almost niche like. Assuming of course that it makes financial sense.

Thoughts?

[Brazen]

I agree the niche focus is probably a smart one for something like Falcon. When Ford was planning to build Focus here I saw that as a sign that the Focus could take on the fleet/family buyers whilst the Falcon could morph more into a performance/luxury vehicle.

The problem with Focus being cancelled is now the Falcon has to stay relatively cheap and mainstream to get fleet/rental sales to maintain factory volumes. However by keeping it cheap and mainstream means that you cant content-up the car to appeal to the more discerning private buyer.

Dont underestimate how much Falcon is between a rock and a hard place. Needing to be cheap to keep fleet sales ticking over (80% of Falcon volume) but with the quality, features, performance, technology to get in the profitable private buyers.

At the moment it seems to have morphed into half-way between both a fleet car and a private-buyers vehicle of choice. The old saying 'Jack of all trades, master of none' seems appropriate as the Falcon which is straddling the lines between both, appears to be losing both sets of customers.

In that regard I think Holden may be in a better spot domestically - move the Commodore upmarket while they pump out cheap Cruzes to keep factory ticking over.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Polyal

In summary the Falcon perhaps should be moving to a more focused product, almost niche like. Assuming of course that it makes financial sense.

Thoughts?

Everyone seems to agree that its impossible to manufacture cars here without government subsisides. One thing everyone seems to overlook, is that in order to get some of the money from the automotive transition scheme (previouslt ACIS), the car manufacturer has to manufacture greater than 30,000 cars in the previous year (and suppliers have to manufacture parts that go into 30,000 cars). Dare I say, Ford Australia are close to falling off that cliff. If its difficult to make cars with government money, it would be alot more difficult without government money. Niche just wont do it.

[jpd80]

Before we even talk about the next generation Falcon, Ford has to come to grips with why the current one sell so poorly,
unless they can seriously turn around sales, it is going to be hard to convince Dearborn to invest in another Falcon.

As much as we banter Holden, combined Commodore, Ute and Cruze sales puts them in a much safer position than Ford.
Ford sales are like watching a slow train wreck month after month where excuses seem to replace sales, I hope that
something positive happens soon as looks like this continued bad news is starting to negatively influence monthly sales.


I remain hopeful that new Territory and EcoLPI will give a huge spurt of sales but wonder just how long that will last.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Before we even talk about the next generation Falcon, Ford has to come to grips with why the current one sell so poorly,
unless they can seriously turn around sales, it is going to be hard to convince Dearborn to invest in another Falcon.

I wonder if something fundamental has to change with Falcon, maybe a diesel? maybe a wagon?

How many sales does Falcon need a month? 3000? 4000? Will EcoLPI increase it enough from 1331? Maybe EcoBoost, LPG and FG2 improvements combined will be enough. I wonder if the Duratec V6 plans would have been just what the doctor ordered in dragging the Falcon nameplate into this century for many prospective buyers.

Mondeo sell over 50% diesel, Territory is expected to be vast majority of diesel - these vehicles are smack bang in the Falcon price range and market. I just really wonder why the diesel isnt being considered.

My gut says you could see a resurgent Falcon with diesel and wagon. Im not feeling that EcoBoost and EcoLPI will get sales where it needs to be, bloody happy to be proven wrong though.


Also, never ever underestimate the sophistication of the consumer. If Ford can get the Falcon right, there is no reason why it couldnt be selling as much as Commodore, its just that Falcon at the moment isnt offering what buyers want.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I wonder if something fundamental has to change with Falcon, maybe a diesel? maybe a wagon?

How many sales does Falcon need a month? 3000? 4000? Will EcoLPI increase it enough from 1331? Maybe EcoBoost, LPG and FG2 improvements combined will be enough. I wonder if the Duratec V6 plans would have been just what the doctor ordered in dragging the Falcon nameplate into this century for many prospective buyers.

Mondeo sell over 50% diesel, Territory is expected to be vast majority of diesel - these vehicles are smack bang in the Falcon price range and market. I just really wonder why the diesel isnt being considered.

My gut says you could see a resurgent Falcon with diesel and wagon. Im not feeling that EcoBoost and EcoLPI will get sales where it needs to be, bloody happy to be proven wrong though.

We could drive ourselves crazy with what ifs but all that matters now is what can be done to attract buyers back.
I'm hoping that all the equations are changing for the better with importing Ford's more fuel efficient engines,
with the dollar at parity, maybe the topic isn't so bleak as Diesel and EB become much cheaper to bring in
and perhaps equations that didn't work before now make a lot more sense with higher fuel prices.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We could drive ourselves crazy with what ifs but all that matters now is what can be done to attract buyers back.
I'm hoping that all the equations are changing for the better with importing Ford's more fuel efficient engines,
with the dollar at parity, maybe the topic isn't so bleak as Diesel and EB become much cheaper to bring in...

Totally agree, Im more purporting that its not all doom. As a decision here, a decision there can have massive consequences. This gives hope that future decisions can have a real positive impact if they nail it right.

[stang65]

I think maybe it needs to shrink a bit, is the bmw 5 series smaller or maybe just a bit bigger than the Bmw 3 series. Maybe Focus on the Territory being the large family mover and the Falcon becoming more euro spec.

Then as has been mentioned in other threads bring the quality and service experience back up to scratch.

[jpd80]

Buyers do the darndest things when high fuel prices abound, they'd sooner pay fro a super efficient car than
give the money to the Arabs, maybe that's the key right there, instilling national pride in efficient cars?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stang65

I think maybe it needs to shrink a bit, is the bmw 5 series smaller or maybe just a bit bigger than the Bmw 3 series. Maybe Focus on the Territory being the large family mover and the Falcon becoming more euro spec.

Then as has been mentioned in other threads bring the quality and service experience back up to scratch.

Next Mustang and Falcon built in common as 2-door coupe and 4-door coupe?
Maybe the more mundane sales duties are handed to next Mondeo/Fusion and Taurus?

I'm thinking about North America, Australia and possibly Europe here, if we look across several
markets for scales of economy then maybe the impossible/unrealistic becomes a reality...

[stang65]

I like it.

[jpd80]

RWD Territory with 10.6 l/100km and 8.2 l/100km with the diesel become the primary people movers and tow vehicles.
The likes of Fusion/Mondeo/Taurus are then free to offer even more tech and fuel economy without bankrupting FoA
and FPV finally gets two international vehicles that could be considered the poor man's Jaguar XK and XF...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Next Mustang and Falcon built in common as 2-door coupe and 4-door coupe?
Maybe the more mundane sales duties are handed to next Mondeo/Fusion and Taurus?

I'm thinking about North America, Australia and possibly Europe here, if we look across several
markets for scales of economy then maybe the impossible/unrealistic becomes a reality...

This is how I am looking at it. We (being the people that like to discuss this sort of stuff and FoA of course) need to loose the mindset that the Falcon is/needs to be FoA's bread and butter car. That horse has bolted.

IF there is to be ANY future for a RWD Falcon post 2015 it needs to be shared with Mustang and be smaller than it is now. A RWD platform that can be scaled between 3-Series and 5-Series size would be just the ticket. That way, Lincoln would get it's RWD platforms to target the equivalent offerings from BMW, AUDI, Merc and Lexus, the Mustang would get it's larger RWD platform that would still be a credible size, and we would still be able to get RWD performance and luxury cars in the form of the next-gen Falcon.

The CD4 cars can take up the mantle of breadwinner for FoA and they should be built here.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by stang65

I think maybe it needs to shrink a bit, is the bmw 5 series smaller or maybe just a bit bigger than the Bmw 3 series. Maybe Focus on the Territory being the large family mover and the Falcon becoming more euro spec.

Then as has been mentioned in other threads bring the quality and service experience back up to scratch.

Yes, I agree with this. I was part of a focus group that assessed the current Mondeo in around 2004, and they didn't tell us what car it was at the time. I assumed that it was going to be the next shape Falcon, and I liked it.

Compare that to what I thought when I saw the current Falc, and I really wished they'd taken some styling cues from the Mondeo and the Ford owned Jaguar at the time. Falcon is probably too big for the vast majority of car buyers. If it were medium sized it would no doubt go well with a V6 or I6 in it, and diesel options. Territory could fill the large car segment.

Having said that though, where would that leave the far superior Mondeo, that already fits these criteria?

One other thing too - when Holden made the small Commodore (VC-VL) and Falcon was at its peak, I don't think we should ever refer to that early 80's exercise as a "lesson learned" on large cars versus medium cars. Times are very different now.

[Ducati888]

The Chrysler 300C is a good example of a niche car, no different to the Hummer H3 in Australia.

Niche cars appeal to niche people. We do not want an Australian mass produced car such as the Falcon to fall in to this category - the market simply is not big enough to contain it like it can in USA. Have a look at the recent Monaro episode. Surveys said they'd sell well and be profitable, but when it went to the market it failed. I love them too, but I'd only own the Coupe 4 version, and only because it's now collectable, no other reason.

The 300C, like the Hummer, is a butt ugly piece of ****. You buy one, sell it half a year later for half its value and walk away, happy in the aura of having owned one amongst your cretinous alpha male group, and let us never speak of it again. It's not a purchase for intelligent individuals, nor those of regular, or above regular, appendage size.

The Falcon is a family car. It should reflect that. Please don't ever refer to it in the same sentence as the 300C again.

[DJR-351]

I am not going to get into a debate why the last new Falcon i bought was a XD 351, other than to say, i will not buy another until it is offered in a povo pack (which i am led to believe is the XR) with a V8.....

Why do they make the bloody things so hard to option these days...???

If i want a V8 Falcon in Povo why can't i have one, why do i have to buy a bloody FPV with all the crap that i don't want...

FM/AM Radio and a V8 will do me fine thank you, ok maybe A/C at a stretch for a whining passenger.....

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

its just that Falcon at the moment isnt offering what buyers want.

so what is it exactly that people do want?

[chevypower]

Come on Ducati, you don't think the world would be a boring place if every car on the road was a Falcon?

[apfgxr6]

Originally Posted by prydey

so what is it exactly that people do want?

for me, exactly what i drive now.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by prydey

so what is it exactly that people do want?

a commodore it seems

To me, a revamped falcon would need a bigger step in design, when the commodore VE came out it looked a lot different (newer) to the commodore VZ and Falcon BF. when the falcon came out it looked like it was playing catchup to the commodore and almost copying it.

Also fuel economy. maybe a 3.5L version of the inline straight 6? or a 3.0L turbo? surely in mass produced format it wouldnt be too costly, even if the sell the first few thousand at a loss, and they have the technology from using turbo on the xr6T. Holden is already planning a DI 2.8L v6 turbo for production which will have more power and torque and better fuel economy then a 4.0L i6.

Turbo Diesel as discussed in other forums would be a welcome option. same an injected LPG, but why not a turbo diesel with lpg intergrated? make that the base model, dont raise the price, its a risk but they need to take a risk or its game over.

The most importang thing is, even if no mechanicals changed from the current model, the one thing ford fail at: marketing
if they market the car correctly, it doesnt matter what engine it has it will sell, just like the first VE v6 engine with no DI, it was pretty crap but it sold due to good marketing.

[jpd80]

By the time you do all of those things, the Falcon becomes basically a RWD parallel platform to the next Fusion / Mondeo.
If you wanted a RWD car, wouldn't it be easier to graft a RWD engine compartment and differential into a global
platform like the next Fusion/Mondeo, that way you save 95% of the cost of sedan, 5-door and Stationwagon bodies.

Either that or throw in with Mustang and have 2-door and 4-door coupes...

On another note, I can see huge scales of economy coming by using global power trains
coupled with a high Aussie dollar, anything from 2.2 I-4 diesel (Ranger/Mondeo), 2.0 Ecoboost,
3.7 V6, Ecoboost V6 and 5.0 V8 - all there for the taking.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I am not going to get into a debate why the last new Falcon i bought was a XD 351, other than to say, i will not buy another until it is offered in a povo pack (which i am led to believe is the XR) with a V8.....

Why do they make the bloody things so hard to option these days...???

If i want a V8 Falcon in Povo why can't i have one, why do i have to buy a bloody FPV with all the crap that i don't want...

FM/AM Radio and a V8 will do me fine thank you, ok maybe A/C at a stretch for a whining passenger.....

You could have bought a BA or BF XT V8 with a manual

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

You could have bought a BA or BF XT V8 with a manual

By then i had moved on, and i would not know what a BA/BF is anyway....

I gave up on the Falcon way back when they dropped the V8 the first time, so best i stay out of these discussions, and of the computer when having a few bevvies....

[Dr Smith]

Just some questions.
Is a Commodore/Aurion sale coming at the expense of a Falcon. ie did the buyer look at all and decide VE/Aurion was the choice and then why (excluding brand loyalty which is almost impossible to defeat). Is the difference really because of Holden offering wagons and V8 Holdens.

If a buyer cannot wait for an LPG Falcon, say lease cars etc which need to be turned over what are they buying instead? Can those buyers be brought back to Ford once LPG is available?

Is the constant negative press on future production, sales slide, etc... also making buyers look elsewhere ala Mitsubishi 380?

I think it was a shocking decision to make BFII look closer to FG after FG was signed off, but that is history and FGII might be able to alter this if budget's allow. I think the tech side is now falling too far behind and hence the value for money equation is against Falcon. Look at what the new Focus will offer or current Mondeo and you realise that a G6ET costs more and only has crazy performance/space as it's superior offering and even the Mondeo has similar space.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Just some questions.
Is a Commodore/Aurion sale coming at the expense of a Falcon. ie did the buyer look at all and decide VE/Aurion was the choice and then why (excluding brand loyalty which is almost impossible to defeat). Is the difference really because of Holden offering wagons and V8 Holdens.

If a buyer cannot wait for an LPG Falcon, say lease cars etc which need to be turned over what are they buying instead? Can those buyers be brought back to Ford once LPG is available?

Is the constant negative press on future production, sales slide, etc... also making buyers look elsewhere ala Mitsubishi 380?

I think it was a shocking decision to make BFII look closer to FG after FG was signed off, but that is history and FGII might be able to alter this if budget's allow. I think the tech side is now falling too far behind and hence the value for money equation is against Falcon. Look at what the new Focus will offer or current Mondeo and you realise that a G6ET costs more and only has crazy performance/space as it's superior offering and even the Mondeo has similar space.

What were the sales of these cars 5 years back. Commodore 8000? a month, Falcon 6000? a month, Aurion 2000? a month, Magna 2000? a month. Large car market of 18 to 20000 a month?. What was the large car market sales for the month of May 2011 = 6215. No large car sales are coming at the expense of any other large car. They are just dying in the ***.

[b0son]

When we were first hit with high fuel prices, that was the first serious belting Holden and Ford took.

Holden went SIDI, 3L, AFM, etc. What did Ford do? Sure, we keep hearing about ecoboost and LPI, but they're still not here.

You can debate the quality of Holden's 'improvements', but the point is, they have been seen to be doing something. What about Ford? Its still the same old same old. Holden appear to be moving forward, Ford appear to be going nowhere.

Then comes styling.

VZ to VE was revolution. Even VE to VEII was revolution in interior design. (nb. revolution as in significant visual change, not necessarily a revolution in design per se).

OTOH, BF to FG exterior was more evolution, adding to the perception that it was still largely the same car. Ditto for interior. It seemed more tweaked than redesigned.

The perception is clearly of a car that isnt changing, and as a result, the VE comes across as being the more up to date car. When it comes to cars, new buyers want the latest. Why buy in 2011 what is basically still an MY08?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

What were the sales of these cars 5 years back. Commodore 8000? a month, Falcon 6000? a month, Aurion 2000? a month, Magna 2000? a month. Large car market of 18 to 20000 a month?. What was the large car market sales for the month of May 2011 = 6215. No large car sales are coming at the expense of any other large car. They are just dying in the ***.

exactly, so it doesn't matter how good they make falcon, if it remains a large car, which it is. there is still a large car market, but it is very small, and has a lot more players as it competes to an extent with various 4x4's and suv's and even some mid size cars. what ford need to do is work out a way to remain viable at these low numbers. truth be told, they may have done that already, or at least be working on it.

when they cancelled the wagon, they intended the mondeo and territory to pick up the sales. mondeo isn't a locally produced product so ford new straight away that the locally produced product would diminish. that tells me they allowed/planned for the lower numbers of local product and expected the imports to improve, all of which has happened. personally, i think the experts at ford know more than the 'experts' on here.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

What were the sales of these cars 5 years back. Commodore 8000? a month, Falcon 6000? a month, Aurion 2000? a month, Magna 2000? a month. Large car market of 18 to 20000 a month?. What was the large car market sales for the month of May 2011 = 6215. No large car sales are coming at the expense of any other large car. They are just dying in the ***.

You don't have to look that far back, just try last years figures.
Commodore is down about 450, Falcon down 1900 and Aurion...well, who really cares anyway....

On the strength of those numbers, Commodore as been affected the least,
so it begs the question of just why Falcon has died in the bum.
If Falcon and Commodore are heavily influenced by fleet sales, I can see how
that 9 litre/100km 3.0 SIDI would be giving Holden a big edge with fleets..
It could also be much more buyer loyalty, whenever Holden is threatened
their fans seem to respond to the call to arms....

[bmorris]

Originally Posted by b0son

When we were first hit with high fuel prices, that was the first serious belting Holden and Ford took.

Holden went SIDI, 3L, AFM, etc. What did Ford do? Sure, we keep hearing about ecoboost and LPI, but they're still not here.

You can debate the quality of Holden's 'improvements', but the point is, they have been seen to be doing something. What about Ford? Its still the same old same old. Holden appear to be moving forward, Ford appear to be going nowhere.

Then comes styling.

VZ to VE was revolution. Even VE to VEII was revolution in interior design. (nb. revolution as in significant visual change, not necessarily a revolution in design per se).

OTOH, BF to FG exterior was more evolution, adding to the perception that it was still largely the same car. Ditto for interior. It seemed more tweaked than redesigned.

The perception is clearly of a car that isnt changing, and as a result, the VE comes across as being the more up to date car. When it comes to cars, new buyers want the latest. Why buy in 2011 what is basically still an MY08?

I agree with everything your had to say here.

There needs to be some real big kicks up the butt within the company. They are starting to remind me of a government department.

Projects for one need to be completed on time, release dates happen when they say they are going to happen eg new SZ terri. When a customer orders a car, the car is delivered to them when they were originally told, not months later.

If Holden can get their development projects done on time, Ford Aus should beable to.

I also believe dealerships have a lot more to do with the problem then what we realise, but thats just my 2 cents.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by bmorris

Projects for one need to be completed on time, release dates happen when they say they are going to happen eg new SZ terri. When a customer orders a car, the car is delivered to them when they were originally told, not months later.

ever ordered a car from another manufacturer?? waiting isn't unique to ford.