Hypothetical: Post 2015 Falcon

[jpd80]

OK guys the hypothetical is that Ford Australia puts forward a viable business plan for another local RWD Falcon.
What does Ford Australia need to do with the current design to evolve to the next generation suitable for post 2015?

Let's have at it and don't hold back........engines, transmissions, fuel economy, body styles, equipment features.....

[Benjamin Smith]

diesel, wagon are a must none of this they will just buy the terry because most people won't when the commodore is avalible.

[FalconXV]

MAKE IT LIGHTER, better interior materials, Put the same passion into it that was put into the BA, because FG is floundering.
Titanium variant above G6ET, with 5.0, bi-xenons, keyless and moonroof.
Team up the inline 6 with 8 speed ZF before it dies, or before Holden brings one out.
Somehow make it suitable for global markets. LHD, Engines <2.0L in mainland europe, diesel, congestion charge friendly and easier to park. Also somehow make it fit into the One Ford strategy. A medium RWD sedan or 3-series size could be a good thing, also a better range of commercial variants like van.
Either that or they'll just give us what Ford USA gets, and I don't see how they could make FWD work in our market aswell as theirs.
I personally want to see an FG 3 door hatch. Same width, shorter wheelbase with a Mk1 Capri style quarter window.
Or a real flight of fantasy would be 2 of the new 1.0 ecoboost triples fused together to make a 2.0 twin turbo ecoboost alloy six, canted at a 45 degree angle. aww yih.

[gtfpv]

for me , i think the sound system has always let every falcon down , a nice branded stereo would be very marketable , and i guess maybe a 7 speed box, limited slip diff standard , and interior evolution . the exterior seems to be on track in my eyes .

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

for me , i think the sound system has always let every falcon down , a nice branded stereo would be very marketable , and i guess maybe a 7 speed box, limited slip diff standard , and interior evolution . the exterior seems to be on track in my eyes .

The latter ones perhaps but I reckon the E series had a great stock sound system, the Pioneer speakers are great and suprisingly good for a stock system.

I think Ford need to think more laterally and do something innovative, something that's gonna breath some new life into the name plate. A hatch has never been done before, might change people's perceptions of the big boat sedan. The Ecoboost already sounds like a great fuel miser but they really need to play that up.

[flappist]

The one thing that is plaguing Falcons from BA onward is cheap nasty interior components.

My BA is falling to pieces and repairing it is ridiculously expensive.
e.g. latest problem.
The plastic front pax door handle let go. The cheap plastic just failed.
To repair, buy a new complete inside door complete $800 (and there are 3 more that will do the same thing) OR go to the wreckers and find that they have none because they are going off like fire crackers.
The list of problems with my FPVs could fill a whole forum by itself.

I have had more problems with post 2000 falcons than all the other cars I have owned since 1976 added together.

I also own a number of Korean and Japanese cars that just keep on running and running.

Now this is not just a Ford thing, I have a number of friends who own Holdens and have the same issues.

Unfortunately it appears that Australian build cars are doing the opposite of Euro/Asian/Yank cars. They are getting cheaper and crappier and lasting less and less time.

I have an XY than has had less things fail than my BA.
My XF is a bit sad but it is worn out not crapped out.

So my vote for Falcon is to use the same sort of design technology that the Japanese/Euro/Koreans use so a Falcon is once again the sort of car you can buy new and drive for 10 or 20 years not something that keeping beyond the warranty period is a gamble.

[aston]

Increase Wheelbase - shorten front overhang
Similar dimensions to current car - maybe slightly smaller externally
RHD and LHD
Utilise Kinetic 2.0 Styling Direction - Styling submissions for all Ford Styling Houses
2.0 Ecoboost
2.5 Ecoboost V6 (replace I6 - manufactured in Geelong)
2.5 Ecoboost V6 LPI (manufactured in Geelong)
3.5 Ecoboost (XR6T) (manufactured in Geelong)
2.0 TDCI (Econetic)
2.2 TDCI (G4 TDCI)
3.0 TDCI (G6E TDCI and DR6)
5.0 DI Coyote or 4.0 Ecoboost Coyote (XR8)
4.4 TDCI (G8E TDCI and DR8)
5.0 SC Miami (FPV)
New Rear Multilink Rear Suspension
6 Speed Manual (XR, DR, FPV)
7 Speed Dual Clutch Transmission (G6, G6D, XR, DR, FPV)
8 Speed ZF Auto (G6E TDCI, G6ET, G8E and G8E TDCI)
4 Door Sedan
5 Door Wagon
5 Door Crossover (Territory)
EPAS
Park Assist
FordSync
Weight reduced by 50-100kg depending on model
Increase in Rolling Wheel Diameter

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by flappist

so a Falcon is once again the sort of car you can buy new and drive for 10 or 20 years

This is why I'm still driving an ED and an XG.

Ed

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XD 351 Ute

This is why I'm still driving an ED and an XG.

Ed

Did you buy them new?

Most people seem to be keeping their cars for shorter and shorter periods.

[jpd80]

So as I read it the areas to improve are:
1) weight
2) Quality interior
3) better sound systems
4) top performance with class leading fuel economy,
5) body styling, less overhang higher waist line, more aggressive styling
6) provision for hybrid/regenerative braking

How do we win back the Aussie public to an affordable large car?
Do we accept that the market has permanently shifted away from Falcon
or does Ford change what the Falcon is to follow the market and regain sales?
What does our future Falcon look like, shorter than VE with smoother lines?
8-speed auto transmission with hybrid drive option?
Do we add diesels or keep going with I-4 Ecopboost?

[SteveJH]

Engines:
- 2.0L i4T
- 3.7L V6 (unless its cost effective to upgrade the i6 &i6T to an alloy block with DI)
- 3.5L V6T (as above)
- 5.0L V8/V8SC
- 3.0L V6TDI (Jaguar engine)

Interior:
- Use the ford global parts bins as much as possible to save costs while improving quality.

Drivetrain:
- Longditudinal RWD/AWD
- 6 Speed Manual/7-8 Speed Auto (DSG?)
- Increased use of aluminium in Panels and chassis
- Relocate stuff like the battery to the boot (as in VE) for improved weight distribution

Brakes, Wheels and Suspension:
- Optional Forged wheels for reduced weight on sports models
- All brakes can be optioned on all models

Overview:
- Rationalise as much as possible ford components to reduce development costs and get economies of scale.
- Reduce weight to increase fuel economy and handling etc
- Design the car for export and/or foreign production from the onset. US Production for the LHD market and Australian production for RHD market would improve the financial outlook.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Unfortunately it appears that Australian build cars are doing the opposite of Euro/Asian/Yank cars. They are getting cheaper and crappier and lasting less and less time.

i guess it all comes back to the fact that building cars in australia is not cheap. the number of jap/euro cars now available is higher than it ever has been so the aussie car makers need to keep their costs down to remain competitive.

quality control may be an issue, but i think consistency of product is probably a bigger issue. some cars last for years, others break on the way home from the dealer. luckily all the fords i've had have been pretty good as far as build quality goes.


i think the next obvious step for the falcon body shape is to head in the direction of the global ford dna. FG2 should lead into FH (or whatever) which could then possibly lead into the 1st global top hat, or head in that direction anyway.

[jpd80]

What about the use of a magnesium frame on an Aluminium body?
If Ford could shed 100 Kg, would you accept an Ecoboost I-4 as the base engine?
As well as Ecoboost V6 as the new XR6 and S/C V8 as the next new XR8?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

How do we win back the Aussie public to an affordable large car?

This is the most important thing I think. Ford and Holden, if they want the Commodore and Falcon to survive, need to give them something that makes them "better" then the cheaper mid sized cars.

And i'm not talking about a bigger engine.

[jpd80]

What if I told you that Falcon/Territory platforms are quite profitable but need to expand sales
to improve return, would you accept that Ford needs to do more with them to extract sales?
Should Ford be looking at I-4 diesels in RWD Territory and Falcon for sales in other markets?
Should Ford develop an export plan based on corporate engines to Asia, India possibly Europe and LHD?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What about the use of a magnesium frame on an Aluminium body?
If Ford could shed 100 Kg, would you accept an Ecoboost I-4 as the base engine?
As well as Ecoboost V6 as the new XR6 and S/C V8 as the next new XR8?

The S/C V8 is most likely too expensive as an engine to be used in an XR8, unless the customer would be willing to pay GS prices for an XR8 anyway.

With regards to the I4T as the base engine, I would have no objection on principle, as long as the government agree'd to an exception to the non-turbocharged car rule for P-Platers for the falcon.

As long as that rule remains in force for the Falcon/Commodore, an N/A 4 or 6 cylinder engine will need to remain in the lineup.

Oh, and the XR8 doesnt neccessarily need to be *faster* then the XR6/XR6T as long as it isnt outclassed by it, I see no reason why they can't be roughly comparable.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

The S/C V8 is most likely too expensive as an engine to be used in an XR8, unless the customer would be willing to pay GS prices for an XR8 anyway.

Anything is possible, look at recent history with XR8, it went from 260 KW to 290 KW by grandfathering
What if I told you the cost of assembling a S/C V8 is similar to that of a 5,4 V8 due to the cost of 5.0 parts being far cheaper?
What if FPV/FoA decides to grandfather the 315 KW S/C 5.0 to the XR8 while taking GT's engine for the GS and the GT gets a S/C engine?
As long as that rule remains in force for the Falcon/Commodore, an N/A 4 or 6 cylinder engine will need to remain in the lineup.

With regards to the I4T as the base engine, I would have no objection on principle, as long as the government agreed to an exception to the non-turbocharged car rule for P-Platers for the Falcon.

Four or five years is a long time in automotive terms, if governments saw the Ecoboost I-4 as a diesel alternative
but having less horsepower than the I-6 then they should allow P-Platers to drive Ecoboost I-4, it's not a performance engine...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

This is the most important thing I think. Ford and Holden, if they want the Commodore and Falcon to survive, need to give them something that makes them "better" then the cheaper mid sized cars.

And i'm not talking about a bigger engine.

Internal width.
Falcon offers similar leg room to most other "Mid-Sized" sedans but like Commodore, it offers
superior width which translates into more room for stuff like room for two child seats plus one adult.
What If Falcon could offer that extra width and better fuel performance/economy than an I-4 Camry-Accord-Mazda6?

It all has to do with Falcon playing in different market sectors and luring buyers by offering things those
other vehicles can't do, whether that be interior space, performance, fuel efficiency or a balance of all three...

[FalconXV]

Financially speaking, what's the most realistic scenario?

[Polyal]

Ok I might get flamed for this a big but we have to keep in mind its a car built for a small market on a small budget, for me if the falcon does not merge with a GRWD platform then forget it. Why?

Because once you do you have access to all the good stuff people want above. Sounds system, while its not super quality the Sony ones in the mondeo/focuses would be good.

Once it merges then it becomes a global car and you can compare it 100% to other cars that get similar budgets, at the moment its fighting with one hand behind its back.

Talking about using alternative materials is good to drop weight, but if it comes at a considerable increase in RRP then no, not worth it IMO.

Other than that I think for the time being a 6 speed is heaps for a local Ford. yes I know we advance over time but again, if its at the expense of runnign costs then no I dont think its a wise move.

Diesel in the falcon is a must, I still cant believe they would go to the effort of putting it in the tez and not the Falcon.

Also bolder looks, Ive said it before but like how the 300C distances itself from the crowd. Because in theory the Mondeo does 90% of what the falcon does, and better, so making it to generic in the Ford world will kill it IMO.

[Road_Warrior]

Well, for starters, it needs to come available with the feature set and quality of its global counterparts on offer in the US and Europe.

This whole 'one Ford' circlejerk should be a two way street and the equipment available to US and European consumers should be made available to Australian car buyers. And if its outside FoA's development budget, then Dearborn should stump up some more coin to make it happen.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ok I might get flamed for this a big but we have to keep in mind its a car built for a small market on a small budget, for me if the falcon does not merge with a GRWD platform then forget it. Why?

Agreed. If FoA could get GRWD and build it here for the asia pacific market.

FoA have shown that they can make a world class vehicle on a decent (even if its small on a global budget). Being able to have the tech, quality, drive lines and reliability cost money. I would love to see a Falcon made on a real budget as its a damm good car now.

[SteveJH]

Actually, I know I was advocating a Diesel engine above, but this is in the Euro Six timeline (if its being exported) and it would depend on the cost of producing and maintaining a Euro Six Diesel engine, for example urea injection.

[ivorya]

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

One word: Budget.

Also, Mondeo is lighter then falcon because it only has 4 cyl engines and because it doesnt have a massive big drive shaft running right back through the car and the resultant heavy duty IRS.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Agreed. If FoA could get GRWD and build it here for the asia pacific market.

FoA have shown that they can make a world class vehicle on a decent (even if its small on a global budget). Being able to have the tech, quality, drive lines and reliability cost money. I would love to see a Falcon made on a real budget as its a damm good car now.

I dont think FoA even have to do the bulk of the work, just pinch whatever platform is made to reintroduce Lincoln (im repeating from another thread); but that brand is key for me.

Then we just do a few finishing touches (maybe local sheet metal and interior to a point) and done.

Will that mean a few job losses, probably, but better than nothing at all.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

[jpd80]

As I see it, Ford Australia has two choices:
1)CD4 - Fusion-Mondeo-Taurus, thse three vehicles are being developed of next gen Fusion which will be built on
a 108" wheelbase which is a mere 25 mm longer than the current Fusion but 105mm shorter than the current Mondeo.
The change in wheelbase is necessary for reducing weight and allowing the development of a longer wheelbase
Taurus off the same platform. If Ford Australia was to go in this direction they would probably take Mondeo
and develop RHD Taurus for Australia and FAPA region. But is this an economically viable decision considering
the changes required to local suppliers?

2) continued development and evolution of RWD Falcon platform using more global engines and engineering
modules like electronic power steering, features like self parking and intelligent cruise control..
Can Ford Australia achieve almost everything a new Taurus could for a fraction of the development cost?

In the event that FoA decides to do another local Falcon, it can still import the next gen Mondeo
for far less than the cost of developing a mid sized car so any costs incurred by falcon development
would be confined to the large car sector, if global engines are used, the cost will be even less....

[robbo/region15]

Post 2015..........
All depends where Vehicles are being built,then Imported to these shores.....IMO Falcon is a niche market,like Fosters ,Vegemite & Dole bludgers.Aussie Icons for sure ,but this is Global Ford in 2011 +.Sure it employs thousands of us,but the economic climate dictates a need for change ,especialy US companies.
just my 2 cents..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

AU Falcon went through no fewer than 39 clinics and produced a great car that very few people actually wanted.
Research is only valid when the right people are surveyed, this is why Ford Australia is far more guarded
these days when it acquires data pertaining to Falcon, they actually target people intending to buy it...

Falcon and Territory platforms produce very profitable vehicles, it's just that the sales numbers aren't as good as they should be.
If Falcon was selling at the same quantities as it Commodore competitor, we wouldn't be constantly questioning its continued use,
our perception of Falcon's fixed costs are based on what we perceive with Holden but those costs are clearly not the same.
Holden needs to run two shifts where Ford only needs to run one one, how can the costs be comparable?

Look at the increased common parts being used between Falcon and Territory, the upgrade to FG II
which was mostly achieved through a change of front bar, lights, interior trim and display screen that is
shared with territory. All of Ford's recent upgrades have been partly subsidized by the government
so the actual cost to Ford and flow on to customers is minimal....

We are just seeing 2011 FG II now but I'm telling you that the next update in 2013 is mostly done already
so that means Ford is already totally focused on what is happening beyond this product cycle, beyond 2015....