Is this a case of false advertising?

TMC · 12-04-2012, 02:47 PM

Went to buy LPG at my local BP here in Perth and they had just dropped their official price on Fuelwatch to 87.9cpl from 88.9cpl the day before. When I got in to the servo, all LPG bowsers were "out of order". Not one open.

I went in and kindly asked the guy at the till what the problem was and he just said "they are out of order". I politely said that I'm not having a go at him, as he's just the till operator, but I said it's a bit fishy that they drop their price to one of the lowest in the state, yet you can't get any due to the bowsers being shut down. He said that they were "out of order" yesterday too. Now it may be that they were out of fuel, but I'd expect him to tell me that if that was the case. Instead he just said they were "out of order" with no further explanation. In WA all servo's must give to Fuelwatch the next days advertised prices by law. So if they really were "out of order" yesterday they knowingly dropped the price on a product they knowingly couldn't provide and didn't take there price down on the front billboard either.

Is this false advertising? I think it is.

I basically told the guy that I didn't believe his explanation and walked out.

Fuelwatch provides a forum for the opposition to see your fuel prices. By advertising a lower price, you are forcing the market to follow, but if you are not for example selling the product at all, for whatever reason (ie don't want to sell it at a loss, or reduced profit margin) but your opposition follows your pricing structure to remain "competitive" and runs a loss, by false advertising your price, you've made your opposition run at a loss. I would imagine that this is aimed at the independents out there. I think it should be illegal.

If all your bowsers go "out of order", you should be forced to pull your prices off the billboard. If your bowsers aren't going to be fixed in the 24 hr period that you report your pricing to Fuelwatch, you shouldn't be able to advertise a price at all, IMO.

Does anyone know if this illegal behaviour to report a price on your billboard, but be unable to supply?

tweeked · 12-04-2012, 03:04 PM

Same as a supermarket with a price on the shelves but no product. Cant see anyway that this could be deemed illegal. Yes they should take the price down, just poor practice and inconvenient but not illegal I wouldn't think.

TMC · 12-04-2012, 03:14 PM

True, I see that happening in a supermarket for example. But every day they have to submit a price to Fuelwatch for the next days price. If they have no intention of selling it at that price, why should they even be allowed to list a price on there website, that's what i mean.

turbodewd · 12-04-2012, 03:47 PM

Fuelwatch sounds retarded. Why does the govt need to help customers know the price of petrol. Its not the role of govt. And what punter is going to drive out of his way to save $1.52?!

Lightning Strike GT · 12-04-2012, 04:20 PM

That was happening here is Brissy a few years ago when they had the fuel commission watchdog going on
They were forced to drop the price of ULP but not PULP and magically the ULP pumps were out of order forcing the poor motorist to use the PULP alternative

Chopped · 12-04-2012, 04:24 PM

If I owned a garage, I'd make sure we were always out of Regular(91) and force everyone to buy Premium(98)

I would leave a sign saying "regular is due in tomorrow, sorry".....and we all know that tomorrow never comes !

(That's assuming there are bigger profit margins for 98 of course)

TMC · 12-04-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Fuelwatch sounds retarded. Why does the govt need to help customers know the price of petrol. Its not the role of govt. And what punter is going to drive out of his way to save $1.52?!

Fuelwatch was designed to stop the daily price fluctuations we used to get over here, just the like the east coast. But I agree with your retarded comment. If you can advertise a cheap price but never be expected or checked up on to deliver the goods, then what's the blimmin point.

Unless they are being watched by a gov dept at the moment like the ACCC. If the figures can be manipulated so that the average the price is a little lower than it is in reality, then it may mean the oil companies can sort of fly under the radar, and avoid any negative consequences. However that would only be true if there was a government dept with teeth to do anything. I think the ACCC is a shark with rubber dentures.

TMC · 12-04-2012, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

If I owned a garage, I'd make sure we were always out of Regular(91) and force everyone to buy Premium(98)

I would leave a sign saying "regular is due in tomorrow, sorry".....and we all know that tomorrow never comes !

(That's assuming there are bigger profit margins for 98 of course)

Until everyone drove out and bought 91Ron down the road. I see your point though.

music189 · 12-04-2012, 07:31 PM

[ I think the ACCC is a shark with rubber dentures.[/QUOTE]

lucky if has even got those

last fairlane · 12-04-2012, 08:04 PM

Yes bloody annoying with the pump out of order
not sure about the legal side of things though
our local Shell when for any reason dont have the LPG for sale
they just blank out the price on the board
gives me the irrits when you drive in to fuel up
get out of the car and the pump has a sign "out of order"
when you run gas you just cant move along to the next pump
filled up this morning Shell Marsden 86.9 per litre
thanks John

TMC · 13-04-2012, 09:07 AM

I've got a friend in consumer affairs. I'll see what he has to say about it.

aussie muscle · 13-04-2012, 09:20 AM

i think it's a case of Bait and Switch... so long as you have duel fuel. (not much good to you if you have dedicated lpg)

mike_nofx · 13-04-2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Fuelwatch sounds retarded. Why does the govt need to help customers know the price of petrol. Its not the role of govt. And what punter is going to drive out of his way to save $1.52?!

We for someone like me who travels 1.5 hours each way for work and puts in 100+L it could save a whole lot at the end of the year.

It wouldnt be a matter of going out of my way, It would determine if I fill up here, or 50km away and save $5.

Really doesn't sound so silly to me.

Reaper8 · 13-04-2012, 10:52 AM

gets you to the servo and hopin you will put somethin in your car. its a sly scam i reacon

Crazy Dazz · 15-04-2012, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Fuelwatch sounds retarded. Why does the govt need to help customers know the price of petrol. Its not the role of govt. And what punter is going to drive out of his way to save $1.52?!

Not retarded at all. Prior to it, we had stupid price fluctuations, and retailers increasing bowser prices whilst patrons were filling up.
In regards to the behaviour in question, I suggest the OP contact fuelwatch.

2011G6E · 15-04-2012, 02:11 AM

Don't know...a real criminal act is more like the Caltex in Blackwater (now closed) during the floods out here last year when we were cut off for weeks...it had "out of order" on all the diesel pumps, until, magically, they started working again once the other servos in town had practically run out...when he put the price up to $1.90+ a liter. A guy walked in on a mobile, and the owner got up him, saying you couldn't talk on the phone there. He said "no problem, it's for you anyway"...it was the ACCC (or whatever organisation you dob in that sort of price gouging to). Prices dropped down to normal within minutes...

TMC · 15-04-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Not retarded at all. Prior to it, we had stupid price fluctuations, and retailers increasing bowser prices whilst patrons were filling up.
In regards to the behaviour in question, I suggest the OP contact fuelwatch.

Tried ringing Fuelwatch. The number rang out. Still waiting on what my friend at CA comes back with.

blackf6 · 15-04-2012, 11:02 AM

Out of order signs in servo's are used for many different reasons. The price they gave the consumer whatchdog is the price they are selling the gas at, regardless if the pump is out of order or not. I don't see the problem. Fuel is not a god given right it is a commodity. The price is the price so because the bowser is out of order they have to pull the price's down. Imho you are making a storm out of a tea cup mate. Fair few conspirousy theory's in this thread and that's what they are theory's couldn't be further from the truth. Prices daily fluctuate with the stock market not servo's trying to rip people off.

In Focus · 15-04-2012, 11:19 AM

The thing that s**ts me is when two servo's opposite each other have prices within .1 or .2c/L of each other on the same day, even though there is supposed to be no collusion.

veqlargh · 15-04-2012, 08:14 PM

I can't see that it would be illegal for them to do this. They have to give fuel watch a price no matter what like was said previously. Would it have been better if it was an expensive price and they were out of order? The bowser's could have been repaired later that day with the servo continuing its trade at the price offered on fuel watch, and if that was the case they would be loosing profit.

Its the same as when supermarkets don't have stock available. this happens for a variety of reasons (spikes in demand, suppliers running out, slow supplies from over east) but companies will still have them as for sale at the lower price. It even happens for catalog lines sometimes. The thing is that they are all planned out weeks in advance and as long as they only charge the advertised price and not more its ok.

TMC · 15-04-2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teak81

Out of order signs in servo's are used for many different reasons. The price they gave the consumer whatchdog is the price they are selling the gas at, regardless if the pump is out of order or not. I don't see the problem. Fuel is not a god given right it is a commodity. The price is the price so because the bowser is out of order they have to pull the price's down. Imho you are making a storm out of a tea cup mate. Fair few conspirousy theory's in this thread and that's what they are theory's couldn't be further from the truth. Prices daily fluctuate with the stock market not servo's trying to rip people off.

You are talking about "a" bowser. All of the bowsers were out and it's a big servo. One or two bowsers out and I can understand. If all of them go out, take your stinking price off the board.

What a lot seem to be missing here is that Fuelwatch is a daily price advertising service which the government uses to monitor pricing and also consumers monitor it too. If a servo doesn't want to sell it at that price, don't advertise that price and put your bowsers "out of order". Sell it at the price you wish to sell it at and put that price on Fuelwatch accordingly. If your bowsers all go out, take your damn sign down. If your bowsers are going to be down for a few days don't advertise a price at all on Fuelwatch.

I understand that things do happen. But if a servo messes with the average price by advertising a low price without any intention of selling it at that price then Fuelwatch is very much compromised and it's figures are not much use to consumers.

jaydee · 15-04-2012, 10:11 PM

Simple, I never go to BP out of principal. They are shonks and are always the first to put up fuel, then the others follow a couple of days later.
I would not give them the satisfaction of fueling up at any BP, they are con artists.
BP stands for Boycott Petrol.

TMC · 15-04-2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veqlargh

I can't see that it would be illegal for them to do this. They have to give fuel watch a price no matter what like was said previously. Would it have been better if it was an expensive price and they were out of order? The bowser's could have been repaired later that day with the servo continuing its trade at the price offered on fuel watch, and if that was the case they would be loosing profit.

Its the same as when supermarkets don't have stock available. this happens for a variety of reasons (spikes in demand, suppliers running out, slow supplies from over east) but companies will still have them as for sale at the lower price. It even happens for catalog lines sometimes. The thing is that they are all planned out weeks in advance and as long as they only charge the advertised price and not more its ok.

It may not be illegal, but if it's deliberate it makes Fuelwatch a complete waste of time. If it had been an expensive price I wouldn't have been there to see it. But if it was an expensive price you can bet your bottom dollar that all of the bowsers would have been working.

The supermarket analogy doesn't work for servos in WA. Servos have to submit there next days pricing on Fuelwatch in WA. Supermarkets don't. Often supermarkets will advertise "while stocks last" and their prices are not controlled so that they can't change their prices many times in a day, although that is unlikely to happen in a supermarket. If the fuel sold out, that is different, but right back at the beginning of this thread I said that they didn't say they were out, they were "out of order".

BTW this isn't the first time I've seen this done. I have been caught a number of times going to the cheapest servo to find their bowsers all mysteriously out of order. One did it for around a week, and published the cheapest prices by far in the whole metro area.

I'm not imagining this. It's an average altering scam.

blackf6 · 18-04-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

Simple, I never go to BP out of principal. They are shonks and are always the first to put up fuel, then the others follow a couple of days later.
I would not give them the satisfaction of fueling up at any BP, they are con artists.
BP stands for Boycott Petrol.

For the record most bowsers run off the same tank for likewise products and any number of things could have happened. Bp shutting of the bowsers has nothing to do with ripping people off get a life. (for the record I work for Bp and you are delusional) There is no such thing as mysteriously out of order pumps. Just a few reasons are:-1- Water in the tank, or lines to the bowser. 2- Pump broken down. 3- Tanker hasn't been and servo is out of that product. 4- There has been a mix up of products. All of which are signaled by pump out of order. So in answer to you question no it is not a case of false advertising. And i can tell you now if the lpg tank is out of order it is because they are out of gas simple as that no hidden gimmicks, not trying to get you to buy fuel. This thread is bordering on illegal, defamatory, false statements.

xisled · 18-04-2012, 06:33 PM

Because the fuel was the cheapest, they had ran out, Could be as simple as that. You did say you went there because it was the cheapest, maybe a couple of hundred other motorist's before you had the same idea.

I think it is funny, people try and save money by going to the cheapest servo, probably driving out of there way using more fuel, and complain when the servo has no fuel. It would probably work out cheaper in the long run, going to a servo on your way and not having to go out your way.

Shonky. · 18-04-2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xisled

I think it is funny, people try and save money by going to the cheapest servo, probably driving out of there way using more fuel, and complain when the servo has no fuel. It would probably work out cheaper in the long run, going to a servo on your way and not having to go out your way.

What gets me the most is that people never seem to put a cost on their own time. If you do anything outside of work to save a dollar you should be doing so at a rate that is equal to or greater than what you could be earning if you were at work. If you can get say $60-$90/hr working overtime then if you spend 15 minutes saving yourself some money, unless you're saving $15+ you are going backwards.

Same as my mate who will walk from the pub to an atm and be gone for 20 minutes cause he's walking to his banks atm to save $2 rather than use the pub one. He's given up time with his mates at 9pm on a Sat night for $6/hr.

Life is short peoples, don't waste it chasing $3

TMC · 19-04-2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teak81

For the record most bowsers run off the same tank for likewise products and any number of things could have happened. Bp shutting of the bowsers has nothing to do with ripping people off get a life. (for the record I work for Bp and you are delusional) There is no such thing as mysteriously out of order pumps. Just a few reasons are:-1- Water in the tank, or lines to the bowser. 2- Pump broken down. 3- Tanker hasn't been and servo is out of that product. 4- There has been a mix up of products. All of which are signaled by pump out of order. So in answer to you question no it is not a case of false advertising. And i can tell you now if the lpg tank is out of order it is because they are out of gas simple as that no hidden gimmicks, not trying to get you to buy fuel. This thread is bordering on illegal, defamatory, false statements.

If they were out of fuel they could have just said that when I asked. I'm not unreasonable. I realise things do happen.

The fact is the price the day before was higher and it was dropped to a lower price the day I went. According to the servo operator the bowsers were out of order the day before, so no, no one emptied the tanks due to it being the cheapest price.

I spoke to my local servo down the road who I support and told him the same situation I told who. He does not belong to BP. He couldn't understand why someone would shut their bowsers down. He said that even when he's had a fault with his bowsers and had to shut one down, he hasn't ever had to shut them all down for a particular fuel. He told me that he thinks it's a bit fishy as well.

The thread being illegal, defamatory, false statements!!!!!????????

Dave_Obsession · 19-04-2012, 10:09 AM

I remember hearing an interesting fact about Bill Gates when he was still head of Microsoft.

They calcuated the rate at which his wealth was accumulating, and they worked out if he was walking down the street and some money fell out of his pocket, unless it was over approx $1,000, it wouldn't be worth him spending the 3 seconds it would take to bend down, pick it up and put it back in his pocket, because he would have already made that much again!

TMC · 19-04-2012, 05:35 PM

I get an email from Fuelwatch every day after 2.30pm when the pricing has to be in to Fuelwatch by the servos, and it gives me todays prices and tomorrows prices for my area and the fuels I specify. If tomorrow will be cheaper I'll wait until after 6.30am but if it's going up tomorrow I'll go and refill on that day. Going out of your way to save $3 is a complete waste of time. I must admit, that if a cheap servo has 300 cars lined up I will bypass it and pay a couple more cents a litre down the road as my time is money. But I do like to reward the more competitive outlets.

Getting back to the original question, I just spoke to Fuelwatch and they said that they have investigated this scenario before. Every time they have investigated it, it has turned out to be a legitimate reason. Also it is not illegal for a servo to put there bowsers out of order for any reason whatsoever. However it is not within there interest to with hold sale of a fuel, which makes sense. He did say that it is not illegal to leave your price up on the board when the servo can no longer supply that fuel for any reason, but he said that they urge all servos who have to shut there bowsers down on a fuel or simply run out, to take their price off the board, out of courtesy. Again leaving the price up is not illegal, but in principal it is wrong and Fuelwatch agreed with me.

In regards to a situation where a large oil company like BP for example, advertises a cheap price with no intention to sell, and shuts there bowsers down with the intent of forcing an independent to compete and sell at a loss, this is anticompetitive behaviour according to the guy at Fuelwatch, and requires the independent fuel outlet to make a formal complaint to the ACCC. Now I'm not saying that this was the case, but hypothetically that's how it would work if it was.

We have two LPG suppliers in WA. BP and Kleenheat. BP supplies it's own metro servos and some country servos as far away as Bunbury. Everyone else basically gets Kleenheat. Independents have to buy from one or the other. Competing must be tough for them.

blackf6 · 19-04-2012, 05:36 PM

Well because you have spoken to an opposing supplier and he says that it is fishy you come on the world wide web and slander bp. The tank was out of gas 2 days in a row. Get over it mate. I am not entering into this discussion any further.