AGE/SMH comparison of Ecoboost, traditional petrol. LPG and Hybrid

[Statler]

The link is to a weekend article comparing the following cars in real world situations:

Ecoboost Falcon
Petrol I6 Falcon
ECOLpi Falcon

SVI LPG Commodore

Hybrid Camry

It makes interesting reading

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...511-1yg69.html


cheers
Statler

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Statler

It makes interesting reading

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...511-1yg69.html


cheers
Statler

Any article which starts off with lpg isn't as efficient as petrol loses me within seconds. Our journalist here has confused efficiency with volumetric energy density of the fuel.

[russellw]

Interesting read. It underlines two things in my mind - just how good the EcoLPI technology in the Falcon is and the usability of the EcoBoost.

Cheers
Russ

[_Ben]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Any article which starts off with lpg isn't as efficient as petrol loses me within seconds. Our journalist here has confused efficiency with volumetric energy density of the fuel.

Fuel efficiency wise, LPG is not as good as petrol. I don't see what the problem is? You use more LPG than petrol for the same work done.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by _Ben

Fuel efficiency wise, LPG is not as good as petrol. I don't see what the problem is? You use more LPG than petrol for the same work done.

Ben, just as the journalist has, you are confusing volumetric consumption with efficiency.

Basically when we are looking at the efficiency of a fuel we are looking at how much of the energy in that fuel can be converted to useful work in the engine. The figures are better for dedicated lpg engines running higher compression.

Also appreciate that per kg lpg contains more energy than petrol, so a car will travel further on a kg of lpg than petrol.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by _Ben

Fuel efficiency wise, LPG is not as good as petrol. I don't see what the problem is? You use more LPG than petrol for the same work done.

This is true, the gap is narrowing but LPGs ace is price....it generally sits at half of pulp. As soon as it gets within 20% it makes less sense.

Its a good article. Personally hybrids might be frugal but if their bought for environmental reasons then its all a bit of fluff really.

[GK]

Perhaps they could have said something like

"whilst as a fuel, LPG isn't as efficient per litre as petrol, i.e, you use more LPG than petrol to go the same distance, the cost of LPG, being far cheaper, more than compensates for this."

GK

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by GK

Perhaps they could have said something like

"whilst as a fuel, LPG isn't as efficient per litre as petrol, i.e, you use more LPG than petrol to go the same distance, the cost of LPG, being far cheaper, more than compensates for this."

GK

the problem is the use of the word efficient, it implies effective use of a material, when in fact lpg is being used more effectively than the petrol.

Simply they just need to say that per litre(volumetrically) the CONSUMPTION for lpg is higher.

[GK]

Originally Posted by Polyal

This is true, the gap is narrowing but LPGs ace is price....it generally sits at half of pulp. As soon as it gets within 20% it makes less sense.

I can't see the oil companies allowing the LPG price to get within that range, otherwise, they'll lose customers. If cars on petrol and LPG cost the same to run, or were only 10% dearer to run, why would you go LPG?

Originally Posted by Polyal

Its a good article. Personally hybrids might be frugal but if their bought for environmental reasons then its all a bit of fluff really.

Agreed, hybrids and the aura around them generate more fluff and fuzz than Sesame Street!

GK

[ken1939]

In the states there was just a report out that most of people that bought hybrids will not buy another. Some pointed to the fact that the "Advertised" savings and miles per gallon were not always the same, and it was not by 3 to 4 MPG.

The fact surfaced, which I calculated when the Prius was for sale in the states 10K over sticker, that it would take 8 to 10 years to find any savings on buying that car.

I knew that my focus in 2005 cost 9K new, and I could drive 100,000 miles at even $4 a gallon gas, and still have not spent as much as the Prius costs.

Now that regular petrol engines are at the 40 MPG (advertised) mark, it seems financially silly to pay that much for so little in return.

I know that the BTU rating of LPG is less than Petrol, but I would not be against having a dual fuel vehicle here in the states. Dedicated LPG not so much, as unlike Australia, we do not have a true network dedicated to refueling. So that would be a partial issue. However, we do have a network of truck rental places called U-Haul, that does sell LPG, so you could plan part of a trip based on that.

Final analysis though, petrol wins the day.

[jpd80]

And this is just the opinion of journalists after a shortish hop of mixed driving,
so depending on a buyers situation, any of the cars noted may be more suitable
than the others - I value the opinion of actual buyers over this broad brushed approach..

[Statler]

[QUOTE=sudszy]the problem is the use of the word efficient, it implies effective use of a material, when in fact lpg is being used more effectively than the petrol.

Simply they just need to say that per litre(volumetrically) the CONSUMPTION for lpg is higher.[/QUOTEsUDSY

Sudsy is on the money - as it reinforces why so many people see LPG as an inferior fuel - it would be different if both fuels were sold by weight. At least the journo understands that Australia is more than self sufficient in LPG and will continue to be so for the next couple of hundred years.

Article reinfroces the Falcon's I6 ECOlpi over the Holden SVI system - I understand that the EcoLPi, in it's current form, can not be used in DI engines - Holden must be hanging out for lpg technology to catch up to be able to be used with DI.

Statler

[ken1939]

Oh I agree that is still an article. You hate to base everything on anecdoal evidence, but buyers talk about what they like. Unfortunatly we have folks in the world that dont know where eggs come from, so they have magazines, well comic books, for them. Well like Car and Driver.

Those articles at times are designed as soft journalism, we are all winners, that sort of stuff.

[AWD Chaser]

I see that it's not noted that you can't fit a tow pack to the Camery hybrid...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Any article which starts off with lpg isn't as efficient as petrol loses me within seconds. Our journalist here has confused efficiency with volumetric energy density of the fuel.

Who the hell, goes and buys a car on the basis of "volumetric energy density"?

No one...


They look at the efficiancy...

[jpd80]

Another option is a diesel Mondeo, something that the article completely ignored...



I note that in Europe, the 2.2 TDCI Mondeo is rated at 2200 kg towing and that in North America,
you can get an AWD version of the Fusion. So if you could combine both vehicles, you could have
an AWD 2.2 diesel that can tow 2200 Kg up a boat ramp, just like a Territory..

[PepeLePew]

Interesting read, but how about we focus more on the article and less about splitting hairs on words.... ;) Joe Q Public see that l/100 for LPG is worse numerically than petrol, which translates to Joe Q Public's definition of less efficient. Lets leave it at that. It does reinforce one thing clearly, Ford are doing good things....so Joe, buy the bloody things! ;)

[No.6]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Who the hell, goes and buys a car on the basis of "volumetric energy density"?

No one...

This i agree with. Regardless of what definitions are being used, the end result is that the average consumer that hasnt researched into LPG will base their views on how far they get on a tank of LPG vs how far they get on a tank of petrol vs cost.

[Struggo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Another option is a diesel Mondeo, something that the article completely ignored...



I note that in Europe, the 2.2 TDCI Mondeo is rated at 2200 kg towing and that in North America,
you can get an AWD version of the Fusion. So if you could combine both vehicles, you could have
an AWD 2.2 diesel that can tow 2200 Kg up a boat ramp, just like a Territory..

JPD the article is based on Australain produced content

Falling sales have forced a rethink of the locally-made large car.

[zebby]

Fantastic write up/test drive of the Falcon Ecoboost in this months Wheels magazine. Should be on the shelves on Wednesday.

8.5/10 and they just loved it. The only minus compared with the six and they were nit picking, was a little less torque in the low rev range but hardley noticeble.

Absolutely rubbished the so called economy 3.0 litre commodore, a tractor compared to ecoboost.

[ivorya]

Why (in relation to the ecoboost) was there so much negativity about the premium fuel business?

Now, i understand the manuals prob say that to achieve figures (as all manufactur's do), premium is to be used, but when the ford drive-train guy is interviewed and expressed that he would just run ord. unleaded with no real-world losses.
I find this jurno taking the **** out of Ford and it's not what Ford need in the current climate.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Who the hell, goes and buys a car on the basis of "volumetric energy density"?

No one...


They look at the efficiancy...

Thats right... The 'science' behind your arguments may be technically correct, but 99.9% of people will have NFI what you have just said "volumetric energy density etc". sounds fancy, but means squat.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by GK

Perhaps they could have said something like

"whilst as a fuel, LPG isn't as efficient per litre as petrol, i.e, you use more LPG than petrol to go the same distance, the cost of LPG, being far cheaper, more than compensates for this."

GK

The article sorta does:

All solutions have their advantages. LPG is not as efficient as petrol, but is (currently) about half the price and emits less carbon dioxide.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ben, just as the journalist has, you are confusing volumetric consumption with efficiency.

Basically when we are looking at the efficiency of a fuel we are looking at how much of the energy in that fuel can be converted to useful work in the engine. The figures are better for dedicated lpg engines running higher compression.

Also appreciate that per kg lpg contains more energy than petrol, so a car will travel further on a kg of lpg than petrol.

What a load of crap.

Per Kg? Well that makes Hydrogen the most efficient fuel, shame you need a truck to carry the tank.

Why not use Uranium, a Kg of Uranium will provide HUGE amounts of power and run your car for centuries although the size and weight of the car might be a bit of a problem but it would be efficient.

Liquid fuels are measured in litres not kilos.

The operating co-efficient of a motor vehicle is measured in DOLLARS nothing else, never has been and never will be.......

[SSD-85]

Whats this? A commodore in last place of a review comparing it to its peers?

Ill be back in a sec, just going outside to see if the sky is falling....

[turbodewd]

The EcoLPi has to be the winner - cheap fuel and massive torque. The camry hybrid only gets 231Nm vs Falcon 409Nm.

[prydey]

welcome back sudszy

[Rodge]

Interesting read. Win for the Camry despite predominantly country driving conditions when the fuel economy benifets of a hybrid are arguably at their weakest shows it to be a genuine contender, (personally speaking i'm not ready to wear a cardigan every day yet )
People using their vehicles predominantly in an urban environment who are less fussed about handling and dynamics might be looking at the urban fuel consumption ADR figures which make an interesting comparison
Falcon LPG - 18.5 L/100 km's
Falcon Inline 6 14.6 L/100 km's
Falcon EB 11.8 L/100 km's
Commodore LPG 16.2 L/100 km's
Commordore sidi 3.0 12.3 L/100 km's
Camry Hybrid...wait for it... 5.7 L/100 km's !!

Source Au Govt Green Website, http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/...icUI/Home.aspx

[bigwil]

Off topic but has anyone got the latest wheels mag front cover picture?

[Olbucko]

How long do the batteries last in a Hybrid and how much will they cost to replace?