E10

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 11:07 AM

hey guys, just wanting to know, if anyone has used E10 to race and what its like, was thinking of using it for the nationals next weekend

cheers '
peter

flappist · 02-06-2012, 11:12 AM

This is a polarising subject but my personal view is that using e10 will make it much easier for you to see the car you are racing.

**ebxr8240** · 02-06-2012, 11:19 AM

Most with turbo / forced induction switch or tune to E85 requiring larger injectors and pumps.. Depending on power the fuel lines too..
Strange as it may seem I find 98 and E10 80/20 % mix seems to work..
Check the drag section...All engines are different..
There's less energy in Ethanol [compared to petrol] but you can run more of it with longer combustion...

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

This is a polarising subject but my personal view is that using e10 will make it much easier for you to see the car you are racing.

might use it for sat, see what happens, i'll burn it all on the weekend, so it wont stay in the tank for a long time

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Most with turbo / forced induction switch or tune to E85 requiring larger injectors and pumps.. Depending on power the fuel lines too..
Strange as it may seem I find 98 and E10 80/20 % mix seems to work..
Check the drag section...All engines are different..
There's less energy in Ethanol [compared to petrol] but you can run more of it with longer combustion...

, behind the petrol lid it says i can use E10 on the phoon

cobramania · 02-06-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by memnoch

behind the petrol lid it says i can use E10 on the phoon

Yeh, but doesn't it say in the owners manual, 95 RON minimum, that means you'll have to use 98 RON + 10% ethanol fuel or what United sell as Premium 100. Using standard 91 RON e10 out of the pump from your local servo, will likely mean poor performance as the engine detunes itself. As flappist said, you'll see the cars your racing better, out the windscreen, instead of in the rear view mirror. What position in the race are you looking at finishing, first or off the podium?

IceValk85 · 02-06-2012, 11:42 AM

e10 in a turbo foon?

your asking for trouble there. if you can find some of the 98 ron rated e10 from united servos or the 100 ron then go for it, its probably quite good, BUT if its the regular GARBAGE 91 ron with ethanol to water it down further your asking for detonation problems under boost.

not all e10 is the same mate.

Ice

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 11:45 AM

i'll use what i always use 98, and i'll add some octane booster lol
that should help

Nic85 · 02-06-2012, 11:48 AM

BP Ultimate. Octane Boost if you wanna have a circle jerk with all your mates. It won't make any difference.

IceValk85 · 02-06-2012, 11:51 AM

octane booster is fun stuff, but be aware it can foul up sparkplugs and do some other odd things. well it used to when it was all the hype years ago, not sure nowadays

Ice

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceValk85

octane booster is fun stuff, but be aware it can foul up sparkplugs and do some other odd things. well it used to when it was all the hype years ago, not sure nowadays

Ice

i heard they are better now,, with a full tank, some used to just add it with 1/2 a tank

Nikked · 02-06-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobramania

Using standard 91 RON e10 out of the pump from your local servo

Incorrect.

E10 isn't 91 ron, Ethanol is an octane booster E10 is 93-95 ron.

Infact, some Octane boosters on the market use Ethanol as an octaine booster...especially as they move away from more toxic chemicals such as Toluene.

Even Petrol companies use Ethanol in the chemical make up of some normal and higher octane fuel blends...

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 12:01 PM

someone told me to use the E10 and add a bottle of nylon octane booster

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 12:03 PM

even better, use my dads home made gruppa, then she will go like a rocket hahaha

IceValk85 · 02-06-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Incorrect.

E10 isn't 91 ron, Ethanol is an octane booster E10 is 93-95 ron.

Infact, some Octane boosters on the market use Ethanol as an octaine booster...especially as they move away from more toxic chemicals such as Toluene.

also slightly incorrect nikked. the fuel isnt NORMALLY a higher octane, its still 91 including the value from adding the slightly octane boosting ethanol. thats why cars rip through it faster. cars consume the ethanol component faster, there are of course some places that sell plain old 91 with ethanol adding a bit more for octane wise, but it would cost them more to do so.... so they dont. its all about the bottom line.

and yes some octane boosters do include ethanol to increase RON points, there the ones i specifically would avoid lol.

ice

IceValk85 · 02-06-2012, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by memnoch

even better, use my dads home made gruppa, then she will go like a rocket hahaha

as mazdas say: zoom zoom boom!

burnz · 02-06-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

This is a polarising subject but my personal view is that using e10 will make it much easier for you to see the car you are racing.

classic

Nikked · 02-06-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceValk85

also slightly incorrect nikked. the fuel isnt NORMALLY a higher octane, its still 91 including the value from adding the slightly octane boosting ethanol. thats why cars rip through it faster. cars consume the ethanol component faster, there are of course some places that sell plain old 91 with ethanol adding a bit more for octane wise, but it would cost them more to do so.... so they dont. its all about the bottom line.

and yes some octane boosters do include ethanol to increase RON points, there the ones i specifically would avoid lol.

ice

With a good condition engine, and same brand fuel, the actually increase is about 2.5-8%. Its higher in the first few runs, but, as the ECU "learns" it adjusts accordingly.

Other factors linked to Ethanol usage is moisture build up in the tank...normal petrol carry this moisture, Ethanol will however pick it up and carry it through the system. Ethanol will also clear out carbon build-up in the engine.

Its no wonder some cars will have funny characteristics during the initial change over, but after some k's are run on it, it should be fine...

Nic85 · 02-06-2012, 02:45 PM

An ECU can't "learn" things mate. An ECU can adjust timing if it has a knock sensor, which detects pinging and adjusts timing accordingly.

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

Incorrect.

E10 isn't 91 ron, Ethanol is an octane booster E10 is 93-95 ron.

Infact, some Octane boosters on the market use Ethanol as an octaine booster...especially as they move away from more toxic chemicals such as Toluene.

Even Petrol companies use Ethanol in the chemical make up of some normal and higher octane fuel blends...

What you say is what we were promised to calm the masses when E10 was first introduced, ie, 'more for less - win win'. Only prblem is, all the Caltex servos I frequent, as well as the Mobil servos have E10 at 91 octane.....

Makes you wonder about the quality of the base fuel in E10 when you add an octane booster to get to 91....

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

An ECU can't "learn" things mate. An ECU can adjust timing if it has a knock sensor, which detects pinging and adjusts timing accordingly.

Your splitting hairs there.......

To the OP. If your track day is a one off, pump your tank with 98 then add an octane booster. It may make nill difference over 98 alone but at least you tried.

If it is a regular thing, do the above mix, try to calculate the average octane of your brew and get a tune suited to getting the best power from the tank.

ratter · 02-06-2012, 02:57 PM

Using ethanol based fuels will result a leaner tune unless it is adjusted to suit the stoich value of the fuel, E10 is not a big issue in closed loop as the ecu will adjust for it assuming everything else is good, but any open loop and especially WOT will be leaner than what the car has been tuned for

Yellow_Festiva · 02-06-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by memnoch

even better, use my dads home made gruppa, then she will go like a rocket hahaha

Didn't they try that in one of the 'Back to the Future' movies already???

flooded one · 02-06-2012, 02:59 PM

the only thing i dont like about ethonal in my falcons is the fuel economy is worse. I did notice it was slightly more responsive thou. if your running on 98 all the time i'd stick with it for racing

Nic85 · 02-06-2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Your splitting hairs there.......

Yeah, I was just pointing out that not all cars have knock sensors, so can't adjust timing, meaning using E10 91 RON or 98 RON with octane booster in it will make no difference at all.

MDS69 · 02-06-2012, 04:01 PM

If you use fuel "A" all the time doesn't it take a few tanks of fuel "B" before you notice the benefits of fuel "B". Isn't it to do with the fuel trim in the ECU.
So if the above is correct (and I am not saying it is) then going to a once off of fuel "B" will provide no benefits.

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 04:15 PM

just thought that it burns a little bit quicker, might go a little bit better, i know that E10 is cheaper than 98

**ebxr8240** · 02-06-2012, 04:25 PM

E10 is an oxygenated fuel..
The 02 sensors pick this up adding more fuel to burn oxygen..
I would concentrate on running fast consistent times...
If you tuned the engine to whatever fuel it would be more efficient..
If your drag racing etc then economy doesn't come into it..
Unless your a real nerd...Lol...

memnoch · 02-06-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

E10 is an oxygenated fuel..
The 02 sensors pick this up adding more fuel to burn oxygen..
I would concentrate on running fast consistent times...
If you tuned the engine to whatever fuel it would be more efficient..
If your drag racing etc then economy doesn't come into it..
Unless your a real nerd...Lol...

thats what i want it for, not going to use it all the time, just for the day

flooded one · 02-06-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDS69

If you use fuel "A" all the time doesn't it take a few tanks of fuel "B" before you notice the benefits of fuel "B". Isn't it to do with the fuel trim in the ECU.
So if the above is correct (and I am not saying it is) then going to a once off of fuel "B" will provide no benefits.

yes because you still have the old fuel in there. you might be able to get away with running the tank too nearly empty (only do if safe i advise other wise not to) then filling up with the higher octane fuel and drive around for a bit and the ECU should learn quicker.