The "2nd Hand" debate

[Crazy Dazz]

I'll start out by saying that over the years, I have mostly bought new, including my Fords. The last 3 cars I bought including two Fords(until this week) were all new (not including those bought for my kids.)

I read this dismissive often in this forum "oh you only buy 2nd hand, you don't count."

I REJECT this argument completely, on two counts.

Firstly, a person who buys a Ford 2nd-hand is not any less of a Ford lover. From now on, if somebody buys a GT, should they be dismissed becuase their car isn't new??? In point of fact I would argue that somebody who has owned a string of 2nd hand Falcons is a BIGGER Ford Lover than somebody who wanders between brands of new cars.

Secondly, economically and logically, the argument is fatally flawed.
Imagine what would happen if it suddenly became illegal to buy 2nd-hand cars. Yes, more people would buy new Gheelys, but since your new car becomes worthless you would have to hang onto it a lot longer. Your ability to so proudly buy a new Ford every year would disappear, unless you literally had more dollars than brain cells. Even taking away such an actual bar, one of the fundamental problems up to now has been that not ENOUGH people want 2nd hand Falcons. The reason that fleet sales have fallen in the toilet is NOT that THEY don't want Falcons or 'large cars," its that nobody else wants them 2nd hand and so the total cost of ownership over two years is too high because after two years and 100kk their cars aren't worth a cracker. So they either buy Toyotas & Mazdas (which seem to almost appreciate in value) or they buy cars that are much cheaper to begin with.
Alternatively, imagine what would happen if the Australian government passed a law giving a flat tax rebate to every owner of an Australian built vehicle. The supply of cruddy old Falcodores would dry up, 2nd-hand values would go through the roof, and we'd be back to the glory days of Ford dealers giving away new Falcons so they could claim them back in 6 months.

Its all about balance. 2nd hand buyers are a vital part of the economy as they support the resale value of new cars which DIRECTLY impacts new car sales.

Of the cars I am currently looking to buy, or have just bought, my reasons for looking 2nd hand are a mixture of Classic Collectible, wanting a project, lack of availability new, and taking advantage of the quirkiness of the 2nd hand market.

[IronFalcon]

You can't buy a HO new. You can't buy a T3 new. (For now anyway) you can't buy an XR8 new.

Lets not forget the people who would crawl over broken glass before they drove anything other than a Falcon... maybe they can't afford anything better than an XF or an EA?

[Itsme]

It all comes down to your finances if buying new or 2nd hand, personally there is nothing wrong buying 2nd hand at all as there can be some great deals in the used car market.

[Ben73]

What? Some people say you can only be considered a fan of a brand if you buy new? I've never heard of these clowns before.

[CyberWasp]

I admire the people in the Projects section that take a Ford that usually should be in the scrap heap and makes it better than brand new. They are all bought second hand.
Saving 2nd hand Fords is just as important as buying the new ones.

[Nova 8]

Second hand just means your not lining fords coffers. Honestly I've never heard anyone say that just because you buy second hand that you're less of an enthusiast. I've got an XC in the shed, how could I possibly buy that brand new, the thing is older than I am.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Nova 8

Second hand just means your not lining fords coffers.

But that is one of my points, a 2nd hand buyer DOES contribute to Ford's profits. Without 2nd hand buyers, people who currently buy a new Ford every two years, would be down to every 10 years.
Plus if 2nd hand buyers were forced to buy new, they'd mostly be buying cheap Chinese rubbish because it was all they could afford.

[Cashie]

The point those members have made in the past isn't that your not an enthusiast, it is that buying used doesn't help Ford's business case for local manufacturing.
No one has been buying new (especially private buyers) for a long time, hence, bye bye Ford Australia.
I see your point on used cars and resale values, Falcons have always had a low resale value, even in the BA hay days (when demand was high). Used Falcons don't seem to have many issues selling, I see dealers moving then on pretty quick.

[LoudPipes]

Unless the original manufacturer also operates a second hand sale business in conjunction with its new product sales then second hand does nothing to help the manufacturer.

If the product is not good enough to have a new sale cliental it won’t be good enough to spark any interest in the second hand market either.

[Nova 8]

I get what you mean, but what's the average upgrade period in Australia, 5 years is about what I'd guess, average loan term? With a 70k vehicle selling for 20k only 4 years later (holden caprice) I don't think the secondhand market props up the manufacturer to the extent implied. Sure it helps people lower the hit to the hip pocket of those buying new but it isnt enough to stop them buying altogether. Once you've had a $70k vehicle lose around $55k value over 5 years i don't see selling it as trying to recoup costs but rather just the done thing cause who uses a car for 5 years then just throws it out?

There are examples where you are spot on and people can afford to upgrade due to the secondhand market. Case in point is myself, I've had 3 new cars since the beginning of 2012 and without secondhand buyers I wouldn't have upgraded yet (VE SSV then VE SS wagon and now VF SSV). But if I just kept my first SS-V and didnt sell it to the guy who bought it he would have bought a new SS (so he told me). Guy who bought the wagon was going to get a SV6 but used the secondhand market to get a V8 with options instead.

People buying new but lower in the range is good for the business and for future upgrades in the range.

[Davehoos]

Buying new cars.
stats that I read depends on economy at the time. factories need turnover to keep spare parts or finance divisions going.

One stat I read is metropolitan upgrade is 6 -8 years and outer areas-not outback] is 10-15 years. My parents do 2 x 10 year up grades with a 5 year tax deal. they have 2 different types of vehicles.

Have owned 2 new vehicles. as I was in a dealer they worked out cheeper than a used car.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Cashie

No one has been buying new (especially private buyers) for a long time, hence, bye bye Ford Australia.

I know it is bit off topic but I think the private buyers are still there but just purchasing more of the other models that are available from dealers, this was certainly expressed to me by the salesman who sold me the Ranger.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Nova 8

I get what you mean, but what's the average upgrade period in Australia, 5 years is about what I'd guess, average loan term? With a 70k vehicle selling for 20k only 4 years later (holden caprice) I don't think the secondhand market props up the manufacturer to the extent implied. Sure it helps people lower the hit to the hip pocket of those buying new but it isnt enough to stop them buying altogether. Once you've had a $70k vehicle lose around $55k value over 5 years i don't see selling it as trying to recoup costs but rather just the done thing cause who uses a car for 5 years then just throws it out?

There's obviously many factors that go into driving the 2nd-hand values of cars. My personal observation is that "premium" versions (whilst more desirable) fall faster, getting closer to their basic stablemates.
But my point is that if MORE people (especially private buyers) wanted these big cars second hand, your Caprice wouldn't lose value so rapidly, and you'd be upgrading more often.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]Unless the original manufacturer also operates a second hand sale business in conjunction with its new product sales then second hand does nothing to help the manufacturer.
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]

Wrong.
But thanks for pointing out another factor: Taken holistically, the greater "Ford" brand DOES operate 2nd-hand sale sales businesses. Buyers of 2nd hand vehicles contribute to the viability of Ford dealers.

[GREGL]

Yep , there is good coin for them when they trade a good 2 - 5 year old car , warranty period so it should be straight into the yard after a detail . Give you next to nothing for it and wack a few thousand on it . Yeh yeh I know , the overheads for the coffee machine .
A lot of people mention how there is little margin in new cars and warranty period servicing these days doesn't really come to much . So where is the cream ?
One other thing , a brand dealer in the past usually only carried his brand in the used lot , if you wanted a used Holden you went to a Holden dealer etc. No brand loyalty anymore with dealers either .

[Davehoos]

Local dealership actually went out of there way to not have their brand in the yard that wasn't a factory approved used car. my former employers would bring demonstrators from the other yards to sell at a premium as part of their sales pitch.

Now the dealers are mostly owned by the same business only a few brands will want to stop cross sales.

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Wrong.
But thanks for pointing out another factor: Taken holistically, the greater "Ford" brand DOES operate 2nd-hand sale sales businesses. Buyers of 2nd hand vehicles contribute to the viability of Ford dealers.

With almost 50 years in the manufacturing sector the last thing we ever needed was the second hand market to compete with.
That’s why so many products that used to be built to last are these days manufactured to be almost consumables.
Use them then throw them away and buy a new one.
Seems to me you are looking for a reason to justify a second hand purchase when in reality the only justification is the cheaper price.
As far as the manufacturer’s dealerships are concerned their bread and butter is servicing new cars under warranty, out of warranty second hand cars tend to end up at smaller mechanical outlets who offer a cheaper service or are home serviced or in many, many cases are just driven until they fall apart.
Start listing some manufacturers that have ever said they need the second hand market to enhance their business model and I’ll sit up and take some notice of your gibberish.

[Davehoos]

Start listing some manufacturers that have ever said they need the second hand market to enhance their business model

Short answer is no.
only brands like ford that had guarantee buy back, Holden with garrateed used car ,Landrover BMW and Nissan advertised the new car sales depend on used car market.
mostly vehicles in the lease market like discovery, prado and Nissan maxima depend on used car market.

Every few years people with PHD look at this and make very different comments. The more recent comments in 20 years has been to reduce the fleet age to at all costs because if the fleet is new GDP will increase--If you can explain this feel free..

Plenty of brands in Australia that put out media releases. Often find this in boring share market and financial reports headlines. last one I read was when Nissan and mitsubishi stopped building cars and made more turnover due to the restructure.

when I was an apprentise my job included cleaning out garbage bins and destroying files. GM would put out boxes of dealer directives on what to say or do and have economic breakdowns on benifits of radio options or mirrors in the glove box. I cant see 2014 being different.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]With almost 50 years in the manufacturing sector the last thing we ever needed was the second hand market to compete with.
That’s why so many products that used to be built to last are these days manufactured to be almost consumables.
[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]Use them then throw them away and buy a new one.
[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]Seems to me you are looking for a reason to justify a second hand purchase when in reality the only justification is the cheaper price.

Seems to me you're a ____(But that is just my opinion.)

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]I’ll sit up and take some notice of your gibberish.

If you sit up, be careful not to hurt your head.

[Dash_XR]

The way is see it is if I'm going to replace nearly every OEM part but the engine, shell and chassis, what's the point of buying new? The global economy killed Oz Ford, nothing else.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by GREGL

Yep , there is good coin for them when they trade a good 2 - 5 year old car , warranty period so it should be straight into the yard after a detail . Give you next to nothing for it and wack a few thousand on it . Yeh yeh I know , the overheads for the coffee machine .
A lot of people mention how there is little margin in new cars and warranty period servicing these days doesn't really come to much . So where is the cream ?

Yep, even when we were in the depths of depression in the 80's & early 90's, used car sales still made their profits. There's no fixed costs to their stock, so they pay less, sell for less, and still turn a profit.
(Obviously that is only contributing to the coffers of AHG or whoever owns the dealership, but in many country towns that would be the difference between having a New Car Franchise or not.)
(And that was only a minor part of my argument.)

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

With almost 50 years in the manufacturing sector the last thing we ever needed was the second hand market to compete with.
That’s why so many products that used to be built to last are these days manufactured to be almost consumables.
Use them then throw them away and buy a new one.
Seems to me you are looking for a reason to justify a second hand purchase when in reality the only justification is the cheaper price.
As far as the manufacturer’s dealerships are concerned their bread and butter is servicing new cars under warranty, out of warranty second hand cars tend to end up at smaller mechanical outlets who offer a cheaper service or are home serviced or in many, many cases are just driven until they fall apart.
Start listing some manufacturers that have ever said they need the second hand market to enhance their business model and I’ll sit up and take some notice of your gibberish.

I bet both ford and holden wish their was a demand for their big uns in the second hand market . After all isn't that what the industry is based on. Your not buying a fridge or tv whereby you throw it away . You don't knock your house down every 5 years and build a new one . If you do , you either should change builders or get you head read .
The car industry lives on second hand buyers . No one buys a new car if they know it worth nothing second hand . Just ask sannyong or lada and plenty of others who tried .

[HULK_I6T]

2nd hand Falcon buyer are a fickle bunch..

Where do we think the 2nd hand falcons are going to come from if noone buys them new? Essentially for every 3-4 falcon buyers there is only one falcon made... (1 new buyer and 2-3 subsequent used buyers of the same car).. imagine if all falcon enthusiasts bought new??? The falcon may still be in existence beyond 2016. Ford must say is this mob really enthusiasts? They are not willing to put their hands in their pockets to buy new? Not happy to cop the depreciation and also happy to buy a well used falcon clearly compromised condition wise from new. Enthusiasts??

Ford packed up shop in australia because falcon buyers have such an attitude. Personally i find it odd that the second hand buyers get upset when they dont like the design of the new model?? Shouldnt they comment in 5-10 years when they are a realistic buyer?

to say "ill buy a second falcon" is like saying as long as everyone else doesnt make a mess and throw their rubbish on the street, then its ok to dump rubbish..

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

2nd hand Falcon buyer are a fickle bunch..

Where do we think the 2nd hand falcons are going to come from if noone buys them new? Essentially for every 3-4 falcon buyers there is only one falcon made... (1 new buyer and 2-3 subsequent used buyers of the same car).. imagine if all falcon enthusiasts bought new??? The falcon may still be in existence beyond 2016. Ford must say is this mob really enthusiasts? They are not willing to put their hands in their pockets to buy new? Not happy to cop the depreciation and also happy to buy a well used falcon clearly compromised condition wise from new. Enthusiasts??

Ford packed up shop in australia because falcon buyers have such an attitude. Personally i find it odd that the second hand buyers get upset when they dont like the design of the new model?? Shouldnt they comment in 5-10 years when they are a realistic buyer?

to say "ill buy a second falcon" is like saying as long as everyone else doesnt make a mess and throw their rubbish on the street, then its ok to dump rubbish..

What are you talking about Hulky.

JP

[Jastel]

I am sure most people would rather buy a new car if they could afford, or justify it.
Most people have limited $$ or are smart enough to realise buying a new car is a waste of scarce money...whatever brand it is.

A 2 year old car goes from A to B just like a brand new one at half the purchase price...

I am not saying NOT to buy a new car...I would have one tomorrow if I could justify the waste of money for depreciation...I am not THAT rich yet and have better things to do with my money.

[GREGL]

Why would anyone buy new when they can go to " hulks used cars " and get better than new at a premium of course .
Enjoy your purchase hulk but please don't denigrate others for what in the main is a lifestyle purchase , sometimes people buy cars to get to A to B , not as a substitute for another appendage .

[pottery beige]

new cars are cool parked out the front of boring bbqs

[falconhell74]

I just wish I could by a brand spanking new XC GS 351 4 speed coupe !!!!!!!!!!
Alas second hand it must be.

[fordman5110]

Couldnt agree more OP.

Its not that its new or old, its THAT you drive a FORD!!"

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by fordman5110

Couldnt agree more OP.

Its not that its new or old, its THAT you drive a FORD!!"

Not quite right!

Its not that its new or old, its THAT you drive a FALCON
Remember this is Australian Falcon Forums isnt it!

JP