Message for the "anti-roads" fraternity

[cheap]

Latte sipping-anti-roads-zealots please take note ...

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/roads-mini...19-gh51w3.html

The chattering classes of the inner city produce more air pollution over Sydney than heavy vehicles, according to the NSW Roads Minister, Duncan Gay.

In one of his most strident defences of his government's motorway agenda, Mr Gay used a lunch-time presentation on Tuesday to outline his concerns about what he sees as Sydney's "anti-roads zealots".

"I am increasingly concerned by a local anti-road movement in Sydney and elsewhere which reveres dogma over reality," said Mr Gay who, as minister, is presiding over the development of two major multi-billion dollar motorways in Sydney, the NorthConnex and WestConnex toll-roads.

"They conveniently forget that thousands of commuters each day need to drive to rail and bus stations, ferry wharves, hospitals, schools, shopping centres and sporting grounds," Mr Gay said.

"I'm yet to see a freight train back into a shop in Newtown, or someone hitch a ride on light rail with their newly purchased ... fridge," he said.

"It is one thing to sit in your cafe, sipping your latte, and complain about cars and roads. It's another thing to wonder how the grease trap in that coffee lounge actually gets removed."

Mr Gay's comments, to a Committee for the Economic Development of Australia lunch, reflect sentiments recently voiced by the chief executive of the WestConnex Delivery Authority, Dennis Cliche.

They both, in effect, argued concerns in inner city suburbs about the development of new motorways failed to address the needs of suburban Sydney residents.

This perspective was strongly criticised by the chief executive of advocacy group, the Committee for Sydney, Tim Williams, who argued at a recent forum upgrading public transport services in western Sydney would be a better policy.

Mr Gay has aggressively denounced Dr Williams' criticism, and on Tuesday he continued on the attack.

"If you talk about particulate matter, there is more particulate matter goes into the air over the city of Sydney from the chattering class sitting around their log fire and a glass of chardonnay [talking about] that horrible Duncan Gay - they put more particulate matter into the air of Sydney by a factor of four or five than heavy vehicles ever did."

Some transport academics and urban planners have been strongly critical of the new motorways, and WestConnex in particular.

The Lord Mayor, Clover Moore, has campaigned against it and has commissioned research arguing that the $15 billion toll-road would be of dubious benefit compared to investment in public transport. Mr Gay has called her an "anti-roads idiot".

In Mr Gay's Tuesday presentation, in which he also said he was "determined" to build another freight rail line to Port Botany, the minister said criticisms of the motorway bringing more people into central Sydney missed the point.

He said 89 per cent of commuters already travelled to Sydney's Central Business District used public transport.

"To ignore these facts and say we don't need roads because it is just encouraging people to drive into the city is ignoring the fact of how our city and our state works," Mr Gay said.

"WestConnex will remove large volumes of through traffic off inner city residential streets."

The government has provided little detail on which residential streets would be improved following the construction of the motorway.

[Trump]

Roads alone won't solve the problem of moving people and goods around a large metropolis, nor will public transport on its own. The solution is a optimal combination of the two. Free flowing high speed roads with no bottlenecks in conjunction with a very extensive heavy and light rail combination network (buses can die in a fire).

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

(buses can die in a fire).

That wouldn't be very helpful as buses are needed to cover the spaces between rail lines.

Car usage in Australian cities has actually peaked about a decade ago whereas urban public transport use has increased and is still growing significantly and is suffering an acute lack of capacity as a result of under-investment.

The most-needed urban motorways are ring roads and cross regional roads. These have largely been built. Building new motorways towards city centres is stupid. When you build them you don't solve congestion because demand increases to fill any capacity increase. They will always be congested and there isn't enough space in cities to park the cars when they get to wherever they're going - or it's uneconomic use of land to convert it to car parking.

So public transport investment is far more important in cities.

As Mr Gay represents a country electorate you'd think he would be far more concerned with the dire condition of rural and regional roads in NSW than pouring money into an urban sinkhole that doesn't solve anything. That guy at the top in Canberra needs to realise the same thing too.

[xxx000]

Private companies owning and running road networks for profit and with conditions in the contract that help to force motorists to use their toll roads by making alternative roads worse than they are......hmmm
Public transport and lots more of it is the answer.
Of course many still will drive and have to for various reasons but the majority don't need to.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by new2ford

That wouldn't be very helpful as buses are needed to cover the spaces between rail lines.

That's where light rail would work much better than buses. To be effective, both would need dedicated corridors and in such an environment, light rail/trams are far more efficient at moving people between heavy rail lines and have a far lower impact on the environment.

In very rough terms, the heavy rail network in both Sydney and Melbourne needs to double in size, with orbital routes and cross metro area lines being prominent. Should the local divisions of govco in both cities see sense and actually build such a rail network, light rail can fill the gaps perfectly.

True orbital freeways (unlike the joke that is the Ring Road in Melbourne) are essential for efficient movement of freight and commercial vehicular traffic.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

That's where light rail would work much better than buses.

Just like you can't back a train up to the loading dock of a supermarket, you can't run a tram down every suburban street. Every mode has its optimum role - horses for courses.

[Streets]

lol what's with these guys and their latte/chardonnay boogeymen

he is just inventing arguments and jumping with fright at non-existent "anti-roads" enemies

[new2ford]

They're not actually "anti roads", but anti the stupidity of blasting motorways into dense city centres where the transport task is far more effectively performed by public transport. He's a blast from the past (1950s) along with his Canberra mate having a dummy spit and taking home his toys over the East West Link in Melbourne.

My bad, Gay's not a rural representative but from the Legislative Council, But he comes from Crookwell. He really should know better. Lifting the speed limit on the Hume Motorway to 130 would be a more useful objective for him to get zealous about. Then he would get home more quickly - if the potholes and worn out bridges on the rural roads to Crookwell don't get him.

[hawke]

Originally Posted by new2ford

As Mr Gay represents a country electorate you'd think he would be far more concerned with the dire condition of rural and regional roads in NSW than pouring money into an urban sinkhole that doesn't solve anything. That guy at the top in Canberra needs to realise the same thing too.

Mr Gay is a Member of the NSW Upper House. He does not have an electorate.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by hawke

Mr Gay is a Member of the NSW Upper House. He does not have an electorate.

Yes I corrected that in the post above. He comes from Crookwell.

[Brazen]

Roads are the future. Public transport is outdated and old fashioned.

Imagine in 2015 waiting on the side of the road for a bus in the rain, waiting for it to trundle along slowly (on its own schedule not yours) picking you up then pottering off to the next stop 300m down the road. Finally you get to your destination - but it doesn't take you to the door, it's still a 5 min walk to the office. Also Imagine late at night and being a young female or blind or mobility impaired... Public transport is from the 1950s and I can't believe people accept it yet whinge about their internet being 2 seconds too slow.

The future is efficient, autonomous, environmentally, self-driving vehicles that communicate with each other and coordinate their actions with the roads and traffic signals. You are in your own vehicle with the climate and music set accordingly. You can work on your laptop or read a story to your kids. These vehicles drop you off to your door and then go and find a park or are a lease service and go and get the next occupant.

Mass rail transport will always be vital but We need modern fast flowing roads that will keep up with the rapid change in transport technology.

[castellan]

We had an anti-road idiot running QLD once and he claimed everyone was going to catch the train in Brisbane.

Their is a lot against progress are around every where.

I was about to start doing a job one day and I said about the state of the road problems for us tradesman to get around in this backward dump, but the home owner was quite happy about it all, thinking it was all good.
And that was it !
I said, do you know what it cost me boy to put up with this day in day out over the year, it's a nightmare, I was sick of people like this trying to destroy us.
I packed up and was out of their.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Roads are the future. Public transport is outdated and old fashioned.

Imagine in 2015 waiting on the side of the road for a bus in the rain, waiting for it to trundle along slowly (on its own schedule not yours) picking you up then pottering off to the next stop 300m down the road. Finally you get to your destination - but it doesn't take you to the door, it's still a 5 min walk to the office. Also Imagine late at night and being a young female or blind or mobility impaired... Public transport is from the 1950s and I can't believe people accept it yet whinge about their internet being 2 seconds too slow.

The future is efficient, autonomous, environmentally, self-driving vehicles that communicate with each other and coordinate their actions with the roads and traffic signals. You are in your own vehicle with the climate and music set accordingly. You can work on your laptop or read a story to your kids. These vehicles drop you off to your door and then go and find a park.

We need modern fast flowing roads that will keep up with the rapid change in transport technology.

So is that why London, most of the large metropolises in Asia, hell even Los Angeles are investing heavily in public mass transit systems and not in road infrastructure?

Imagine the gridlock should Melbourne's 3.5 million+ vehicles hit the road at the same time come peak hour in the scenario where public mass transit is non existent or severely curtailed from what currently exists. It would cease to be an hour and end up being a dawn to dusk logjam. And no amount of automation would be able to deal with such a massive volume of traffic.

[jpblue1000]

Thanks cheap, another great public service done.

I take from that article there is a NSW minister with vested interest supporting a CEO of a company with a bigger vested interest in preventing funding of an alternate mode of transport and then throwing the proletariate off the scent by making popularist insults at the academic class, those who know and anyone else who disagrees with his 'most likely', lobbied idea, defaming them personally and making unfounded baseless 'scientific' claims to boot.
Winner!

JP

[LG17]

Gay is just a fool. :(

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The future is efficient, autonomous, environmentally, self-driving vehicles that communicate with each other and coordinate their actions with the roads and traffic signals. You are in your own vehicle with the climate and music set accordingly. You can work on your laptop or read a story to your kids.

isn't that what public transport allows already?

JP

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Roads are the future. Public transport is outdated and old fashioned.

[jpblue1000]

as an automotive and driving enthusiast we should all be pro public transport. get those camry donning plebs onto the bus, train, efficient, autonomous, environmentally, self-driving vehicles that communicate with each other and coordinate their actions with the roads and traffic signals. while they work on their laptop or read a story to their kids. freeing up the existing roads for you.
Best way to ultimately reduce traffic congestion is create bottle necks!

JP

[superyob]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Thanks cheap, another great public service done.

I take from that article there is a NSW minister with vested interest supporting a CEO of a company with a bigger vested interest in preventing funding of an alternate mode of transport and then throwing the proletariate off the scent by making popularist insults at the academic class, those who know and anyone else who disagrees with his 'most likely', lobbied idea, defaming them personally and making unfounded baseless 'scientific' claims to boot.
Winner!

JP

Off topic alert! I am university educated JP, but I have always had a deep distrust of academics for as far back as I can remember. Going to university just reinforced my perception that most are indeed hothouse flowers...

Luckily I re-boganed shortly after I finished uni.

I think most Australians do not like being pontificated at by those who don't 'forage for crap' like most of us peasants...

[zipping]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Best way to ultimately reduce traffic congestion is create bottle necks!
JP

Do you have any actual evidence to support this claim?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by zipping

Do you have any actual evidence to support this claim?

London, new York, Tokyo! living proof.
If you cant drive there, and still want to go there you find a way!

JP

[new2ford]

Congestion is a disincentive to driving but politicians here are reluctant to endorse such a method. Continuously increasing road capacity (trying to decongest) is a downward spiral into rats alley because as soon as you create more road space you induce demand for it and it becomes congested again. You can never win on that one. The only way out in cities is to increase public transport capacity to take the pressure off the roads.

The most effective road projects in urban areas are the ones that bypass centres (ring roads etc). They've pretty much been already built in Sydney but public transport is being overwhelmed by demand. Yet the money is going to urban motorways not public transport. Not very logical.

The road money is needed outside urban areas and ordinary roads generally, not motorways except where gaps remain to be filled.

[zipping]

So you think those places don't have congestion?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by zipping

So you think those places don't have congestion?

No I don't think that, but that is why their public transport systems are so heavily used, funded and sucessfull.
Took me over an hour to hour and a half peak hour to cross london in the car ( 5 miles) when on the train, central line, 15 minutes plus 10 minutes of walking, cost 4.5 pounds. Congestion charge cost me 8, parking 30, fuel 10 and lost time 150.
London was never built for cars it has bottle neck after bottleneck ands as such the vast majority of people dont drive. In fact I believe its near 40-50 percent of Londoners do not have a car...Imagine if they did what the roads would be like. Proof public trabnsport is an imperitive in big cities.
New york has 50-60 percent of its residents without cars and over 10 million commuters per day and Tokyo may be even higher without cars an much much higher commuter numbers.
They invested in public transport because they had to, they are real cities not the backwater towns we have here. This then frees the roads for those that need to use them, deliveries, freight, the white van man etc.
Imagine the carpark a city would be if everyone commuted by car...oh it would be Adelaide.

JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Thanks cheap, another great public service done.

I take from that article there is a NSW minister with vested interest supporting a CEO of a company with a bigger vested interest in preventing funding of an alternate mode of transport and then throwing the proletariate off the scent by making popularist insults at the academic class, those who know and anyone else who disagrees with his 'most likely', lobbied idea, defaming them personally and making unfounded baseless 'scientific' claims to boot.
Winner!

JP

If you've lived or been to Sydney, the fact is that the traffic is hopeless, perpetually hopeless. It is a major issue.

Given the topology and history of Sydney, there is no amount of public transport investment that can fix the traffic. Sydney is vast, it spans significant waterways, it has rugged deep valleys, it is surrounded by large national parks.

Every Liberal and Labor political party has aspired to do something about the traffic, new bridges, new roads, new tunnels. Sydney now has MORE BUSES, MORE TRAINS, MORE TRAIN LINES, MORE LIGHT RAIL than ever in it's history, but the traffic is still crap. Sydney has a population of several million and growing. Sydney is not like Adelaide with its quaint wide streets, flat earth profile or relatively few people. Sydney is not London, or Tokyo, Sydney is Sydney.

So pray tell, what alternative mode of transport do you have in mind to solve the traffic problems, we're sitting on the edge waiting for your response.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Congestion is a disincentive to driving but politicians here are reluctant to endorse such a method. Continuously increasing road capacity (trying to decongest) is a downward spiral into rats alley because as soon as you create more road space you induce demand for it and it becomes congested again. You can never win on that one. The only way out in cities is to increase public transport capacity to take the pressure off the roads.

The most effective road projects in urban areas are the ones that bypass centres (ring roads etc). They've pretty much been already built in Sydney but public transport is being overwhelmed by demand. Yet the money is going to urban motorways not public transport. Not very logical.

The road money is needed outside urban areas and ordinary roads generally, not motorways except where gaps remain to be filled.

So your argument is that we build roads, people use roads so therefore we shouldn't build any more roads (capacity). Think about it a bit longer yes public transport is important but road infrastructure is even more important in a connected society where businesses and people need to move objects or get to place of work or leisure as easily as possible. Public transport is just not flexible enough. Productivity is the key word here and public transport plays a role but not the dominant role. If its a choice then roads win every time in an economic sense. Why do you think it is that every government ultimately go for road projects over PT? There not stupid except for Labor putting lights on the south eastern lol I remember that bottlekneck extremely well so no bottleknecks do not solve congestion

[Adamz Ghia]

Why do road and public transport have to be mutually exclusive? We have rates that have never been lower, borrow to the hilt and build both instead of ****ing away over half a billion dollars just to prove a stupid political point.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Best way to ultimately reduce traffic congestion is create bottle necks!

JP

The best way to reduce a patients clogged arteries is to give them more chocking cholesterol, that does seem to be what what you're saying?

[Trump]

The thing is, we are viewing PT as inflexible based on our experiences of what passes as a mass transit system in Australia. As it stands, it is a joke. This is due to generations of neglect by both sides of the political coin. Perth for a while bucked the trend with the construction of the Mandurah line, but from what I can tell, it is near on overloaded during peak times.

Build the lines that would create the flexibility to remove the Camry drivers from the roads, watch congestion on the roads significantly drop.

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Why do road and public transport have to be mutually exclusive? We have rates that have never been lower, borrow to the hilt and build both instead of ****ing away over half a billion dollars just to prove a stupid political point.

Why borrow on the open market, sovereign bond issues specifically to fund transport infrastructure are a far more socially acceptable means to do so.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

The best way to reduce a patients clogged arteries is to give them more chocking cholesterol, that does seem to be what what you're saying?

In a way yes I am. I guarantee the patient will stop complaining after a while!
the family will move on and maybe even find an alternate method to kill themselves than the burger and chips. Society will suffer less wasted money on health, and palliative care.
Of course a road system is nothing like the arteries within the human body. If blood stops circulating a patient dies, it cant find an alternative route and the patient still dies. A road network is a flexible thing. A road block causes some delay, the drivers find an alternate route, they earn less money but nobody dies, the city doesn't grind to a halt, it evolves, it decides to invest in public transport to eradicate the camry driving road cholesterol or it wastes money on more roads to also become clogged with traffic.
Bit like smoking, want people to stop because their habit is costing the taxpayer billions in health care, tax it heavily and more people stop. clog the roads and more people are forced to find alternatives, and a smart city provides the smartest mode to move more people...public transport.
There are bigger forces at play than your desire to commute in your car, societal engineering forces for the betterment of our economy and society.

I like traffic jams! they slow the cars down, making them slower and therefore safer so they don't get in my way when I smugly wizz past on my bike as I head to the local inner city cafe to sip my latte, with my gay, educated buddies while munching tofu burgers and burn effigies of **** poor decision makers and the self entitled natives as I plot to ruin your day!

JP.