Audi shifts away from dual clutch transmissions

[Express]

Audi shifts away from dual clutch transmissions


Next-gen RS4 and RS5 likely to run eight-speed automatic


David McCowen
16 June, 2016




Cockpit Audi A5 Coupe. Photo: Supplied


The brand that introduced dual-clutch transmissions to Australia is gradually moving away from the technology for some models.

Audi's first-generation TT V6 was the first car on sale in Australia with a dual-clutch transmission, a feature that has since been adopted by brands ranging from luxury rivals BMW and Mercedes-Benz to economy cars from the likes of Ford and Hyundai.



Audi A5 Coupe. Photo: Supplied


Originally developed for performance cars such as the TT, Volkswagen Golf R32 and Bugatti Veyron, the technology is gradually being withdrawn from high-torque machines in favour of smoother and more reliable torque converter transmissions.

Audi dumped the seven-speed "S-Tronic" dual clutch transmission in the new S4 and S5 performance sedan, wagon and coupe that blends 260kW of power with 500Nm of turbocharged torque. That car features an eight-speed ZF transmission likely to feature in the next-generation RS4 and RS5 performance cars that trade a 4.2-litre naturally aspirated V8 and seven-speed dual-clutch auto for a development of the S4 and S5's high-torque V6.

Florian Beck, powertrain engineer for the new Audi S4 and S5, says the shift is primarily "a torque issue".

"You have to look at the maximum torque. Up to 400Nm is the perfect combination for the dual clutch transmission, but this one has more than 500Nm," he says.

"The new eight-speed transmission is very consistent and very efficient. With eight gears you have very low engine revs while driving. It's the perfect combination of power and efficiency.

"With higher torque combining with tiptronic is the ideal combination... That's the current strategy."

Volkswagen and Audi have had a slightly bumpy road with dual-clutch transmissions, recalling thousands of cars equipped with a dry-clutch seven-speed auto primarily used in low-power applications.

Among its rivals, Ford also shifted away from dual-clutch transmissions and back to a conventional automatic when the latest Focus arrived in 2015 after a spate of issues left thousands of customers with faulty cars.

Dual-clutch transmissions can also be jerker than conventional units, delivering power in an abrupt manner from time to time.

Beck acknowledges that there are low-speed driveability benefits to the shift away from dual-clutch transmissions.

"With a torque converter it helps for the takeoff. And of course it's very important to calibrate the whole power train, it has to work together," he says.

"You have to find the perfect blend between dynamics, efficiency and comfort.

"The eight-speed transmission is the perfect combination."

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...16-gpkryu.html

[Trump]

In other words, they were sick of replacing them under warranty...

[mcnews]

Yep buying anything DCT secondhand would be a very, very, very brave move. Thousands of these things will be sent to wreckers while still perfectly good cars in every sense but DCT replacement etc. would render them unviable.

[TUF_302]

These gearboxes that bad/complicated???

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Yep buying anything DCT secondhand would be a very, very, very brave move. Thousands of these things will be sent to wreckers while still perfectly good cars in every sense but DCT replacement etc. would render them unviable.

Having said that, if a tranny specialist was able to streamline the repair (the Ford ones apparently need their gaskets changed) then advertise it as a drive in / out fixed price service with no surprises at a reasonable price they would probably do quite well.

There are a heap of youtube clips of workshops doing this in the 'States.

Ford wanted $700 just to 'inspect' my gearbox.

There are a whole heap of these DCT's in multiple cars that are out and about out of warranty..

Not a bad business case to be honest, for cars already on the road or for people buying faulty cars for nix, repairing the DC T and selling them with a basic warranty.

[Trump]

I don't know of any transmission shops in Melbourne that touch DSG-type gearboxes other than in a remove and replace capacity. The same goes for CVT-type transmissions, as the OEM either doesn't have service parts or refuses to resell them if they exist.

[EB#]

"....smoother and more reliable torque converter transmissions."

Stating the obvious. About time.

[Sabantien]

The girlfriend's A1 has the DSG, and it's very smooth when you're driving normally, barely notice any gear changes. Admittedly I'd say the same for the 6 speed zf in my Ford.

I think the idea is a good one and I'm sure given more development it'd be quite reliable too, but there's probably no real need to be overcomplicating gears that way.

[XR Martin]

Driven a few current model Golfs and I wouldnt describe the transmissions as smooth...
I reckon the 250k old BTR in my EL is smoother on occasions.

Sure when you get on the throttle they are very quick and efficient, but thats not how most people drive them.

[malazn mafia]

ZF are the king of transmissions. Waiting for the day when the ZF 8 Speed can be shoehorned into a BF or newer Falcon.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

ZF are the king of transmissions. Waiting for the day when the ZF 8 Speed can be shoehorned into a BF or newer Falcon.

It would be an epic task, one that may be too much considering the transmission would cost far more than the recipient vehicle, let alone the costs associated with fitting it to a Falcon (structural and electronic).

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Express

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/a...16-gpkryu.html

So how come 2016 Transporter/Multivans with 450Nm still have dsg boxes.

[Sprintey]

Audis (or VW) with 8 speed ZF across the range would be awesome.

[Express]

Why stop at 8, isn't Ford currently working on a 10 speed?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

These gearboxes that bad/complicated???

Well I guess that explains this:

Originally Posted by Express

Problems under warranty

Percentage of respondents who faced issues with their new car, broken down by brand.

Holden: 68%
Ford: 65%
Audi: 62%

[mik]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Having said that, if a tranny specialist was able to streamline the repair (the Ford ones apparently need their gaskets changed) then advertise it as a drive in / out fixed price service with no surprises at a reasonable price they would probably do quite well.

There are a heap of youtube clips of workshops doing this in the 'States.

Ford wanted $700 just to 'inspect' my gearbox.

There are a whole heap of these DCT's in multiple cars that are out and about out of warranty..

Not a bad business case to be honest, for cars already on the road or for people buying faulty cars for nix, repairing the DC T and selling them with a basic warranty.

You have to wonder why they reinvented the wheel , the conventional tranny is pretty reliable and simple , why add complexity to something that works well.
the very concept of these things ....eek .
As we have seen on the repairs of these dsg boxes on youtube, the are an absolute nightmare for repairs , you have to wonder what where they thinking .

[v8snerlo]

I'm sure repairs on any gearbox isn't cheap. VW made the mistake of going to the dry clutch seven speeds as opposed to the wet clutches in the six speeders which were a lot more reliable. Granted, they take a little getting used to driving as they are essentially a robotised manual gearbox. I can speak personally about this as my two cars have a dsg and a conventional torque converter. If I am honest, the dsg in my R36 s**ts all over the tranny in the territory. I'm sure that if ford had kept the proper zf for the diesels then it might be a little closer but for smoothness in normal driving, the dsg wins hands down in my situation. As for reliability, depends on how astute the owner is on maintenance. Ford failed with their dsg but don't be quick to tar all dsg's based on one brand. My dad has an 8 speeder torque converter in his Q7 and it is a great smooth gearbox. They handle the power of modern cars brilliantly and are very smooth at doing it. Everyone will have a differing opinion maybe to what I have experienced but this is just my opinion. I'm not against one gearbox as opposed to the other and I welcome torque converters back, especially with the modern ones with a thousand gears! ��

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Well I guess that explains this:

That doesn't explain the gearbox. Skoda also uses the group's gearboxes and comes out high up in reliability surveys, whereas VW and Audi consistently have worse reliability. There are plenty of other factors at play, probably fair to say revolving around quality control and general standards in the three companies.

My rule of thumb for VAG products is: Skoda is their quality brand, Audi is the prestige (doesn't necessarily = quality) brand and VW is the cheap and cheerful take-pot-luck brand.

[Revolver]

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

[v8snerlo]

Get used to it mate there are nine speeders out there now and tens are on their way. I think nine and ten are a little over the top though. Eight in my old mans Q7 does actually work from my experience. It is a twin turbo diesel V8 though! I have named it the animal because believe me, once going it is a ferocious beast when you put your foot down.

[Sabantien]

Originally Posted by Revolver

I don't understand the fascination of car manufacturers to increase the amount of gears supplied. Why does anyone need 8 gears? Sure the Veyron has 7 but 7th is for the high speed run to 400kmh & beyond.... You won't be doing that in a golf. Or Audi.

I remember Jeromy Clarkson tested a convertible Cadillac that had a 7 speed slush box and he hated it. Because "Your toenail has to grow a thousandth of an inch and the gearbox changes either up, or down, and your don't know which one. *looks down at console of car* "STOP IT! Just be a gearbox!!!!"

And that competely makes sense because the more you increase the amount of grears, the closer the ratios and each speed would need a certain optimum gear. All those gear changes would sheet me to tears.

In reality 6 is the most you need. If a V8 Supercar can do 300kmh with a 6 speed, a road car can by far live with 6 as well.

Fuel economy. More gears, less revving. Very little to do with top speed.
The gear changes don't bother you because they're autos and chances are unless you're thrashing the car you don't even notice them.

That said, my gf's 7 speed revs higher at 100 than my 6 speed, but a 4l n/a 6 vs a 1.4 turbo 4, it's just a very different beast.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by v8snerlo

Get used to it mate there are nine speeders out there now and tens are on their way. I think nine and ten are a little over the top though. Eight in my old mans Q7 does actually work from my experience. It is a twin turbo diesel V8 though! I have named it the animal because believe me, once going it is a ferocious beast when you put your foot down.

People probably thought the same thing when cars went from 3sp autos to 4 and 5sp and same with manual trans going from 3 to 4, then to 5 and 6.

We'll probably look back on cars in 30 years time and laugh that they only had 6 gears once upon a time

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

People probably thought the same thing when cars went from 3sp autos to 4 and 5sp and same with manual trans going from 3 to 4, then to 5 and 6.

We'll probably look back on cars in 30 years time and laugh that they only had 6 gears once upon a time

Part of the reason the EA copped such a hammering with the press was because of the 3 speed it arrived with. It was outdated and killed the performance of the 3.9 litre. When the 4 speed arrived with the EAII, it was a huge difference (although still nowhere near as lively as a 5 speed manual). The Chrysler Neon had a 3 speed auto till 2002! Not even an updated gearbox could have made that a good car though!

[GTMOND]

My dad was talking to a transmission guy he uses, and his opinion was that you don't need anymore than 6 gears as it will not translate into better acceleration or economy IHO. He rated the ZF in the falcon highly.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Well with 7,8 9 and 10 speed boxes here or on the way why don't they just all go to CVT's???

No fixed ratios to speak of but they are able to encompass all of the above possible gear ratios within the current design. Concentrate a whole heap of R&D on making them as good as they can and I think it's money well spent considering the flexibility of the design.

All these ratios are for lower speed driving and to boost economy. I also think we need an ultra tall top gear for flat freeway driving.

I had no idea why my 6sp DCT in the diesel Focus I had needed to spin the engine at 2000+ rpm on the freeway when most of the torque started 3-400rpm less.

I now have a heavier, larger Outlander with a regular 6sp auto and larger diesel engine and that sits at 1700rpm on the freeway and uses the same as the Focus.

[Express]

Originally Posted by GTMOND

My dad was talking to a transmission guy he uses, and his opinion was that you don't need anymore than 6 gears as it will not translate into better acceleration or economy IHO. He rated the ZF in the falcon highly.

The engineers employed by the manufacturers definitely disagree with the transmission guy your dad was talking to, they are of the belief it improves economy and therefore emissions.

All performance cars should revert back to the Powerglide in my opinion, any more than two speeds it just showing off.

[383hq]

fuel consumption is a function of throttle position (foot)
Less throttle (foot) less fuel, better economy.

Generally More gears = better chance for the CPU to choose one that requires less throttle position (ie closer to best BMEP) for a given situation

The new raptor has a turbocharged V6 (probably with a torque graph like a 12 seat dining table) and a 10 speed gearbox.

I guess on the highway I'd ask why so many?, but it might make sense from an economic criteria when comparing to old designs using two gearbox setup (with high/low range) for off road work, and may be used to generate sales on other vehicles?

I agree with performance cars and powerglides. 2 speeds Fast and F'n fast.

[csv8]

Surely, the faults with the DSG would have been picked up in testing ???? Why put a car on the market with a suspect auto?? Audi, VW, Ford etc did it . Why??? doesnt make sense...

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by csv8

Surely, the faults with the DSG would have been picked up in testing ???? Why put a car on the market with a suspect auto?? Audi, VW, Ford etc did it . Why??? doesnt make sense...

It depends on how they are tested?? I wonder the same actually.

I had a Citroen with a single clutch tranny. Had similar issues and took it to Citroen.

When the service manager took it for a drive with me to 'test' it, he drove so slowly and smoothly he hardly touched the throttle. It was changing gears at 1500 rpm and he looked at me and said 'see no issues, works fine!'. Nice flat road, not even a round about or speed hump.

But that's not how most people drive most of the time! Did get them to do a software update and found that the previous owner didn't use Citroen for servicing and had therefore bypassed about 5 routine updates.

Did Ford rely on manufacturer testing results?? Still, these would have been installed in mules and driven to death under all conditions??

Perhaps the bean counters thought that a fix / alternative unit was more expensive than the repairs within the 3yr warranty..

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Express

Why stop at 8, isn't Ford currently working on a 10 speed?

Ford and GM are developing one together because economies of scale.