A Great Time To Be A Driving Enthusiast

Optional · 25-12-2016, 08:38 AM

We may be the last generation to view driving as a right just about all of us should enjoy.

Once self driving vehicles prove to be safer than regular cars laws will soon follow to make new drivers prove they are at least that safe.

I think that eventually driving will require jet fighter style training before being allowed on the streets.

I'm glad that I got the chance to drive dangerous machines pretty much where and how I want. I bet our grandkids will shake their heads at the craziness of it.

Merry Xmas

**thefargo** · 25-12-2016, 09:10 AM

my grandfather got to sit on top of a wild, very big beast and ride it. it could run, jump, snort and do all sort of horsey things.

I shake my head at the thought of that!

my dangerous machine, which is powerful enough to go fast, has not tried to bite me, or step on my foot.

I'm not sure which would work out cheaper to run?

I think you are right, we may be the last generation to be able to manage our own transport, using our own skills (and brains)

Lunch · 25-12-2016, 09:22 AM

I think that until computers have instinct and can anticipate the way the human mind can, we are safe from that bleak outcome, until they create a car with AI we should be good and if Skynet is anything to go by, I hope they never do..

One way around it would be if all the vehicles on the road were linked to the same operating system allowing all vehicles to know what every other vehicle on the road is doing, then having to factor in for the unpredictable ( wildlife, fallen trees, weather etc ) will be a problem. It will no doubt happen eventually but that will result in a complete halt in traffic infringements and until the government can work out how to replace such an easy way to raise massive amounts of revenue, not to mention the cost in implementing such a system or the cost to the user.. I can't see it happening anytime soon. I think for now, the odd 'self-drive' car here and there will just be a novelty.

Optional · 25-12-2016, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunch

I think that until computers have instinct and can anticipate the way the human mind can, we are safe from that bleak outcome, until they create a car with AI we should be good and if Skynet is anything to go by, I hope they never do..

One way around it would be if all the vehicles on the road were linked to the same operating system allowing all vehicles to know what every other vehicle on the road is doing, then having to factor in for the unpredictable ( wildlife, fallen trees, weather etc ) will be a problem. It will no doubt happen eventually but that will result in a complete halt in traffic infringements and until the government can work out how to replace such an easy way to raise massive amounts of revenue, not to mention the cost in implementing such a system or the cost to the user.. I can't see it happening anytime soon. I think for now, the odd 'self-drive' car here and there will just be a novelty.

Elon Musk (Tesla founder) claims that autonomous systems are already provably safer than drivers.

He thinks that they need to be statistically 200 times safer before regulators will approve them... but thinks that is only a year or two in the future technically.

Convincing govt, and us, they really are safer seems to be the only real stumbling block even now today.

If you have never listened to him talk about the future of cars it's worth some Youtube time.

malazn mafia · 25-12-2016, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optional

Elon Musk (Tesla founder) claims that autonomous systems are already provably safer than drivers.

He thinks that they need to be statistically 200 times safer before regulators will approve them... but thinks that is only a year or two in the future technically.

Convincing govt, and us, they really are safer seems to be the only real stumbling block even now today.

If you have never listened to him talk about the future of cars it's worth some Youtube time.

Elon Musk is the equivalent of that shonky car salesman who promises the car can do this that and that, while in reality things aren't that simple . He probably does absolutely diddly squat and has his minions he bosses around making things happen, like most visionaries..

roddy1960 · 25-12-2016, 04:44 PM

G'day..I agree ..In 50 years a licence will be redundant as we know it today however I suspect governments will still find ways of stinging the operators or owners of predominantly autonomous vehicles and will still make them liable for mishaps..and there will be failures because it's near impossible to make a machine that can't fail..
Most of us will be pushing up daisies by then perhaps..
I reckon within the next 10 years we'll be seeing it start to happen .
In another thread that i started a few months ago , the general consensus was that none of us wanted to hand total control to a machine..There really needs to be human involvement/over ride somehow..
Cheers Rod..

Optional · 25-12-2016, 06:46 PM

I'm not sure I like the idea either. But I doubt a human over ride will be normal. More likely the reverse, where none is allowed I suspect. As the logic will be that it's safer to let the computer decide which vehicle should crash with the least danger to people in cases of problems.

I also think it's going to start really soon. Not 10 years. More like 2017 or 18 we see the arguments over laws begin. And it's one of those things that will change things really fast once here. Like the CD did.

These truck based terror attacks will be a factor pushing it along faster too I think.

CyberWasp · 25-12-2016, 07:28 PM

I would argue the last of the Enthusiasts drove the cars before Traction Control & ABS ect.
A lot of the cars on the road today are way more sedate than they would be otherwise if you took out all the driver assist stuff.

xr8cam · 26-12-2016, 01:22 AM

Nothing of any significance will change in the next 50yrs. Untill we are about to run out of our tried & tested fuel sources, no government is going to make room for alternative sources and this all includes driverless aids & electric powered cars. We are a world obsessed with oil and have been since dawn of time. Why change anything when that might risk others getting in on the profits? That would be the intelligent thing to do.

.:4:. · 26-12-2016, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I would argue the last of the Enthusiasts drove the cars before Traction Control & ABS ect.
A lot of the cars on the road today are way more sedate than they would be otherwise if you took out all the driver assist stuff.

The dad of a good mate of mine got taken for a track day in a Ferrari f40 back in the day (I think it was in the late 90's or just after the f50 was released and I dunno when that was) but he had an awsome day in a super car that you had to change your own gears and drive yourself. Traction control was a balance of clutch and accelerator, no abs, and stability control was 13 inch wide rear wheels. These days you get all the fancy driver aids in a new car under 20 grand, and they all don't have the ability to kill you going anywhere as fast on a straight or in a corner. But to an extent, as cars try not to kill you more and more everyday, people are starting to lack the car control of when they did. Pull a new p plater out of a yarris and throw them in a v8 torana and watch the smile going in a straight line at an average pace turn into a look of horror when it either oversteers into oncoming traffic or understeers into a tree on the first corner when either the fronts lock up under hard braking or dsc doesn't kick in because it didn't exist in the 70s

BENT_8 · 26-12-2016, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I would argue the last of the Enthusiasts drove the cars before Traction Control & ABS ect.
A lot of the cars on the road today are way more sedate than they would be otherwise if you took out all the driver assist stuff.

Agreed, infact i'd go as far as to say I feel sorry for the current breed who have never experienced what it was like to drive a real car without modern aids keeping it all together.
Was down the beach on xmas eve and my youngest lad was mesmerised by the old school cruisers getting about with authentic V8 and associated soundtrack and he said how cool it would be to be able to own or even drive such vehicle, I told him it was as that's what we drove when I was first starting out.
Before gizmo's were manufacturers key selling points and 5 star ANCAP's were the buzz words I would laugh at all the emphasis on owning a vehicle with 5 stars. When I got my licence i hoped the seatbelt in my TE Cortina would do the job if called upon and that the collapsible steering column would give in before my rib cage. Up to that point it was all throttle and brake modulation with a little steering input on my behalf, all from the edge of the seat to avoid the need to test said seatbelt.
Now you just plant your foot and traction control prevents a burnout, DSC keeps it all neat and tidy and should you need to bail for some reason you just mash the brake peddle and ABS brings it all to a gentle halt saving you from the experience of Auto Zorbing, you know, that feeling of anything up to a dozen airbags leaving you a boy in a bubble.

Ahh, the good old days...

Trump · 26-12-2016, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Elon Musk is the equivalent of that shonky car salesman who promises the car can do this that and that, while in reality things aren't that simple . He probably does absolutely diddly squat and has his minions he bosses around making things happen, like most visionaries..

He's a lot worse than that but I digress.

The time of greatness has passed. We are in the twilight of it, we have these epic machines capable of so much, yet we are hamstrung by endless coddling. We are subjected to endless regulation and punishment in the name of safety. We are unable to appreciate the greatness of these marvels of engineering because of relentless interference from govco.

Whilst the machines are spectacular, the environment to drive them in is rather beige...

Sioso · 26-12-2016, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I would argue the last of the Enthusiasts drove the cars before Traction Control & ABS ect.
A lot of the cars on the road today are way more sedate than they would be otherwise if you took out all the driver assist stuff.

And back then there wasn't any camera's so you could get away with a hell of a lot more!
Stuff that would make the papers these days....

Express · 26-12-2016, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Agreed, infact i'd go as far as to say I feel sorry for the current breed who have never experienced what it was like to drive a real car without modern aids keeping it all together.
Was down the beach on xmas eve and my youngest lad was mesmerised by the old school cruisers getting about with authentic V8 and associated soundtrack and he said how cool it would be to be able to own or even drive such vehicle, I told him it was as that's what we drove when I was first starting out.
Before gizmo's were manufacturers key selling points and 5 star ANCAP's were the buzz words I would laugh at all the emphasis on owning a vehicle with 5 stars. When I got my licence i hoped the seatbelt in my TE Cortina would do the job if called upon and that the collapsible steering column would give in before my rib cage. Up to that point it was all throttle and brake modulation with a little steering input on my behalf, all from the edge of the seat to avoid the need to test said seatbelt.
Now you just plant your foot and traction control prevents a burnout, DSC keeps it all neat and tidy and should you need to bail for some reason you just mash the brake peddle and ABS brings it all to a gentle halt saving you from the experience of Auto Zorbing, you know, that feeling of anything up to a dozen airbags leaving you a boy in a bubble.

Ahh, the good old days...

I’m glad my children have all the modern safety aids as I don’t want them to go out the way some of my friends in the 70’s & early 80’s did.

Not everyone is good at learning car control no matter how well the car is or isn’t equipped with safety features.

I can understand a car enthusiast sees them as an intrusion and takes away some of the learning aspect of car control as I feel the same but most people aren’t after the thrill of the drive, they just want to get there and with the increase in vehicles on the road it a good thing these systems now exist.

Personally I’ve had a few times when driving my C63 in the wet that I’m pleased the computer has caught it quicker than I could have and I’ll also admit in the dry I like a bit more freedom to slide so I’m not a total wowser on the subject, I just believe the advance in these systems are safer for road users as a whole.

Unfortunately the enthusiasts have to suffer for it or head for the track.

**Rallye Sport** · 26-12-2016, 02:57 PM

All of these new gizmo's are a good for the new generation.

One thing they will never learn though is mechanical sympathy.

We have a new machine at work with a 'smart' computer. It's designed to slow ground speed to compensate for extra load. I'd just self adjust with the throttle but more than one of the gen y's will just keep pushing to the point that the hydraulics are squealing or it will stall out... Why?... they're listening to tunes on their iphones and can't hear it... To me its one bit of technology compensating for the other. I always ask new operators not to listen to tunes for the first couple of weeks until they learn the machine but it's like a breach of their basic human rights and I'm the biggest nazi on earth.
I need to adapt though, I've read the manual cover to cover now and learned the computer. I've have set it to come on automatically, it ***** me that I have to scroll through and turn it off every time I use it but for the welfare of the machine I'd rather that than the gen y's ruthlessly punishing it with no regard for mechanical sympathy

BENT_8 · 26-12-2016, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Express

I’m glad my children have all the modern safety aids as I don’t want them to go out the way some of my friends in the 70’s & early 80’s did.

Not everyone is good at learning car control no matter how well the car is or isn’t equipped with safety features.

I can understand a car enthusiast sees them as an intrusion and takes away some of the learning aspect of car control as I feel the same but most people aren’t after the thrill of the drive, they just want to get there and with the increase in vehicles on the road it a good thing these systems now exist.

Personally I’ve had a few times when driving my C63 in the wet that I’m pleased the computer has caught it quicker than I could have and I’ll also admit in the dry I like a bit more freedom to slide so I’m not a total wowser on the subject, I just believe the advance in these systems are safer for road users as a whole.

Unfortunately the enthusiasts have to suffer for it or head for the track.

Yes, you're totally correct and for the same reasons I'm thankful for advancements in technology.
Having said that, my point was that the modern generation haven't had to comprehend what it is to have nothing else to rely on than their own instincts and ability to get themselves out of a tricky situation as we did back in the day.
They take for granted the things that we had to master and have suffered from a lack of experiences because of that.

One of my first cars was an LH Torana with foot activated park brake, the thrill of scaring the pants off my passengers when i'd swiftly apply it on a dirt road unexpectedly and then disengaging it with the hand operated dash mounted release mechanism so as to catch the slide is hard to comprehend never mind the thought of mastering when described to my 18yr old.
Could you imagine a current or future vehicle with that type of system, or a foot operated high beam switch, or something with a cable operated clutch or manual steering that you had to put effort into.
Designers have made it all so easy and convenient that they basically drive themselves without much thought.
I guess I'm just lucky to have experienced both sides of the fence which is something very few of the current crop will ever do.

Give me the good old days anytime.

lra · 26-12-2016, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

One of my first cars was an LH Torana with foot activated park brake,

Ahhh ... a nostalgia thread ... love them. ( What a god-awful car, a manual LH Torana. Don't take it personally, I had one from new, couldn't get rid of it quick enough.)

My first new car in 1968 had 145bhp (108kw) and went like a scalded cat, and I never had a moments drama with it despite all the ‘tech’ that it didn’t have.
My current car has 245kw, ABS and traction control only, the ABS has not been needed yet, and sometimes I turn off the traction control so I can have a smile.
But it is not 250% quicker than the 1968 version. Some of the creature comforts I could not do without now are A/C, electric adjustable seats, electric windows, auto trans ...... stuff that I thought was BS, even in the 1980s. I have not had a manual gearbox car for 20 years, but I am still capable of getting a ‘V8Race’ joyride car out of pitlane without stalling it.

TV advertising and marketing has a lot to answer for, as the current ‘active’ and ‘passive’ safety features can lead to less experienced drivers thinking that if something goes badly due to lack of talent or forethought, they will be ‘protected’ from the consequences, so there is no need to learn how to control a tonne or more of high speed metal.

A driving enthusiast today is anyone who is capable of keeping their tyres inflated, knowing where the dipstick is, and performing a hill start with a clutch, manual gearbox and conventional hand brake. The rest are passengers in the drivers seat.

Express · 26-12-2016, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Yes, you're totally correct and for the same reasons I'm thankful for advancements in technology.
Having said that, my point was that the modern generation haven't had to comprehend what it is to have nothing else to rely on than their own instincts and ability to get themselves out of a tricky situation as we did back in the day.
They take for granted the things that we had to master and have suffered from a lack of experiences because of that.

One of my first cars was an LH Torana with foot activated park brake, the thrill of scaring the pants off my passengers when i'd swiftly apply it on a dirt road unexpectedly and then disengaging it with the hand operated dash mounted release mechanism so as to catch the slide is hard to comprehend never mind the thought of mastering when described to my 18yr old.
Could you imagine a current or future vehicle with that type of system, or a foot operated high beam switch, or something with a cable operated clutch or manual steering that you had to put effort into.
Designers have made it all so easy and convenient that they basically drive themselves without much thought.
I guess I'm just lucky to have experienced both sides of the fence which is something very few of the current crop will ever do.

Give me the good old days anytime.

I was agreeing with your comments and just adding that we are far outnumbered by those who are only interested in A to B driving and I feel safer that there is modern tech because of them.

My C63 has a foot parking brake and a release handle and all my children have experienced it plus I still have a couple of Toranas as well.

Mercedes have only in the last few years done away with foot parking brakes and introduced electronic handbrakes with the current models.

Optional · 26-12-2016, 05:47 PM

Agree that the better driving aids become the 'worse' new drivers are going to be at old school control of cars.

Which means we need better and safer gizmos to keep up with the decline in skills.

It's inevitable what will happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sioso

And back then there wasn't any camera's so you could get away with a hell of a lot more!
Stuff that would make the papers these days....

There is a 3km stretch of road near me that has always been a place people have sped for the 40 odd years I have known it. It's one of those rolling hilly straight stretches that you need to brake to stay under 60 and many people just go 70ish.

Back in the day there was a police radar car parked on it at least 2 or 3 times per month and as a bit of a hot foot teenager I pretty much never sped along it.

These days with a speed camera halfway along I have not seen a radar there in a decade. But now days majority of traffic does 70 or more, then brake to under 60 for the speed camera and speed up again down the next hill.

When busy it's actually more dangerous than it ever has been when a non local gets caught out by the late braking locals and speeding there is more regular than ever before I think.

BENT_8 · 26-12-2016, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Express

I was agreeing with your comments and just adding that we are far outnumbered by those who are only interested in A to B driving and I feel safer that there is modern tech because of them.

My C63 has a foot parking brake and a release handle and all my children have experienced it plus I still have a couple of Toranas as well.

Mercedes have only in the last few years done away with foot parking brakes and introduced electronic handbrakes with the current models.

image

Well **** me, you learn something new every day, I always thought the foot activated park brake was due to it being an oversight on Holdens part, never would have imagined that something like a Merc would utilise one.

Olbucko · 27-12-2016, 10:48 AM

It could be argued that the 50s & 60s were great time to be a driving enthusiast, when you were free to modify your car any way you wanted, there were no ADRs, the roads were uncluttered, and there was no open road speed limit.

malazn mafia · 27-12-2016, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well **** me, you learn something new every day, I always thought the foot activated park brake was due to it being an oversight on Holdens part, never would have imagined that something like a Merc would utilise one.

A Holden with a foot activated parking brake ? Which model do you speak of? The only cars I have the misfortune of driving with a foot brake is a dowdy Toyota Avalon and a boat of a 7 series. Even the EA and earlier umbrella handbrake is infinitely more user friendly and effective than that excuse of a thing ,

.:4:. · 27-12-2016, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

A Holden with a foot activated parking brake ? Which model do you speak of? The only cars I have the misfortune of driving with a foot brake is a dowdy Toyota Avalon and a boat of a 7 series. Even the EA and earlier umbrella handbrake is infinitely more user friendly and effective than that excuse of a thing ,

Lh torana? Ever try driving a 4 speed with 4 pedals? It's not so terrible in something like a Honda crv or a 2000s Benz or some mazdas. Atleast the foot handbrake is higher and out of the way of where the clutch should be so you don't instinctively push it. The only merit of the uc torana was the hand brake that you could refit into the older models with the foot brake and dash release

Outbackjack · 27-12-2016, 01:49 PM

Just a couple of thoughts. It happens sometimes.

The current fleet of cars will be here for many more years. Some diesel 4x4's could possibly still be around in 30 years?? Not un heard of. In fact there are still many 30 plus year old cars still in service.

What will happen to govco coffers if auto drive cars become the norm. There will be a short fall of $$ that will have to picked up some other way. More tax.

How will this affect 3rd party insurance providers? If a accident happens who will wear the blame? Who will sue who? If these vehicles are made mandatory would the Government accept being sued because it was their laws that forced people into a specific type of vehicle?

To combat congestion will the government make it impossible to use your auto drive vehicle at certain times by disabling it? What will happen to motor cycles?

What kind of person really wants the vehicle that they are in making all the decisions? Yeah, I know, they're out there.

I really cant see auto drive vehicle making much head way any time soon. I might be wrong but I dont think so.

.:4:. · 27-12-2016, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Just a couple of thoughts. It happens sometimes.

The current fleet of cars will be here for many more years. Some diesel 4x4's could possibly still be around in 30 years?? Not un heard of. In fact there are still many 30 plus year old cars still in service.

What will happen to govco coffers if auto drive cars become the norm. There will be a short fall of $$ that will have to picked up some other way. More tax.

How will this affect 3rd party insurance providers? If a accident happens who will wear the blame? Who will sue who? If these vehicles are made mandatory would the Government accept being sued because it was their laws that forced people into a specific type of vehicle?

To combat congestion will the government make it impossible to use your auto drive vehicle at certain times by disabling it? What will happen to motor cycles?

What kind of person really wants the vehicle that they are in making all the decisions? Yeah, I know, they're out there.

I really cant see auto drive vehicle making much head way any time soon. I might be wrong but I dont think so.

Auto drive isn't fool proof yet, and I somewhat doubt it ever will be completely bullet proof. People react quicker then a.computer when it's something out of the computers parameters. It's the oh **** factor. Hence why tesla recomend you have your hands near the wheel when on auto drive. Don't even ask for my opinion on lane filtering for bikes. My arms aren't long enough to click my passenger wing mirror back from the drivers seat

**Rallye Sport** · 27-12-2016, 04:10 PM

Agreed we're along way off autonomous vehicles.
Interesting watching the auto drive bus test here in Perth. It still needs an attendant, four traffic controllers, a ute and sign board.
The trees have been cut back from the side of the road by five metres and the kerbside parking stopped. For a bit of fun I've been driving right on the centre line, it'll freak out and stop itself, (works with traffic splitting motorbikes too, lol). It is learning though and has been playing chicken longer and longer but the human will always win...

Express · 27-12-2016, 04:58 PM

It's funny that autonomous vehicles are being discussed when Drive by Wire technology such as Steer by Wire and Brake by Wire terrifies most consumers because of the possibility they may fail along with their susceptibility to being hacked.

Ben73 · 27-12-2016, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optional

I'm not sure I like the idea either. But I doubt a human over ride will be normal. More likely the reverse, where none is allowed I suspect. As the logic will be that it's safer to let the computer decide which vehicle should crash with the least danger to people in cases of problems.

I also think it's going to start really soon. Not 10 years. More like 2017 or 18 we see the arguments over laws begin. And it's one of those things that will change things really fast once here. Like the CD did.

These truck based terror attacks will be a factor pushing it along faster too I think.

Can start the arguments about laws as soon As you like. I can't see self driving cars being the norm for quite a while.
Plus Australia is about 10 years behind the rest of the first world so I will start to become worried when self driving cars are the norm in Europe.

Olbucko · 28-12-2016, 10:13 AM

Can't ever see self driving cars working out in the bush, how are they going to cope with potholes, narrow roads with a strip of bitumen just wide enough for one car, roos and wallabies that jump out at the last second, wombats, roads without shoulders, creek crossings, snow, endless road works, dirt roads, narrow blind corners, etc etc.

Maka · 28-12-2016, 11:24 AM

Umm, flightless autodrones will be usurped by Jetson type low flying family transportation drones mid to late this century. In the meanwhile, these segways on steroids will become mainstream in the next 20 years, petrol powered cars will be legislated out of existence by the vested lobby dollars. Sound familiar...Shoe on the other foot?

Oh sorry, had a bad dream ^^^ last night lol!!!

cheers, Maka