Telsa busting while the big 4 car manufacturers are booming?

[Maka]

Hi all, here's a nice read comparing Telsa & the big four US car manufacturers financially -

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...-gm-fca-2018-5

Seems like its a 50/50 bet which way Tesla's future will go, but their fans love them even when the numbers dont stack up.

Interesting times ahead for Tesla, love them or hate them!

cheers, Maka

[Wretched]

Tesla as a car company will not be able to compete with the likes of Porsche (Mission E) and Mercedes when they introduce their full EVs. They'll be built via better processes honed over many decades and have a better reputation.

Tesla will make its money through the innovation of batteries, I cannot see them being in automobiles for too much longer.

With Toyota here in OZ really pushing their hydrogen platform too, it'll be interesting to see how much longer EVs will go for.

[Nikked]

Tesla is probably better off as a component manufacturer, evan as far as supplying engines to other companies.

[Fairlane 500]

All Tesla needs is someone like KIA to start making something like an electric version of the Stinger

at around a quarter of the price & they are all over IMHO.

I get the impression that Tesla are just trying to shake up the industry and drive progression towards better vehicles, and for that I think they're succeeding.

Big businesses seem all too happy to keep delivering the same old crap without improving their product, provided it still generates them money. Tesla has come along and showed that we can advance more, we can do better, and other companies are listening.

Elon isn't a traditional business-man, he doesn't want to just profit and live a rich life, he's trying to move us all forward in technological advancement. He'll go make a boatload of money with xx company to go dump it on yy project and blow it all fairly happily.

[Maka]

Maybe Musk has known all along that open sourcing his battery IP may help his business & also the future of ev's etc survive, not only is his car business competing against the big 4 manufacturers, his battery tech is up against hydrogen powered ev's etc too.

Here's 4 interesting links for background info -

https://www.informs.org/Blogs/M-SOM-...al-Perspective

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/05/11...tous/id=81839/

https://www.raconteur.net/business/o...eed-innovation

https://theconversation.com/wheres-t...t-pledge-30410

cheers, Maka

[4vxc]

Originally Posted by leesa

I get the impression that Tesla are just trying to shake up the industry and drive progression towards better vehicles, and for that I think they're succeeding.

Big businesses seem all too happy to keep delivering the same old crap without improving their product, provided it still generates them money. Tesla has come along and showed that we can advance more, we can do better, and other companies are listening.

Elon isn't a traditional business-man, he doesn't want to just profit and live a rich life, he's trying to move us all forward in technological advancement. He'll go make a boatload of money with xx company to go dump it on yy project and blow it all fairly happily.

Definitely not a traditional business man.
Sounds more like a con man

[malazn mafia]

Battery tech and electrical infrastructure is where the EV concept falls over. Pollution is just being moved elsewhere, through battery production or electrical generation. The real solution is technology to atomize water into its flammable constituents, hydrogen and oxygen. But the government wouldn’t take to this very well, as it would be next to impossible to ensure tax compliance when one could fill their motor vehicle up on tap water and electricity from their power point

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Tesla is probably better off as a component manufacturer, evan as far as supplying engines to other companies.

Don't Mercedes supply tesla with their motors?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Tesla as a car company will not be able to compete with the likes of Porsche (Mission E) and Mercedes when they introduce their full EVs. They'll be built via better processes honed over many decades and have a better reputation.

Tesla will make its money through the innovation of batteries, I cannot see them being in automobiles for too much longer.

With Toyota here in OZ really pushing their hydrogen platform too, it'll be interesting to see how much longer EVs will go for.

There are a lot of manufacturers who are very close to releasing new electric vehicles. Jaguars is nearly on sale, MB, Audi, VW are getting close, Ford is talking 2020 etc. Once they are flooding the market it's going to steal so much of Tesla's market. They just can't build cars like the big manufacturers can. Just look at all the factory problems they are having. Cannot even make enough cars to break even cause there are so many massive bottlenecks in the factory. Their poor manufacturing experience and knowledge is killing them.

[b0son]

Musk's ego will ultimately be Tesla's undoing. He thought he could outbuild an industry that has had decades to optimise its processes. Tesla's productivity is the joke of the automotive world.


And as far as being a non-traditional businessman, don't bet on it. He's as crooked as any of them...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...ce-play-us-all

[Ben73]

I have heard their build quality is pretty horrible. Once big name car companies start making some good electric cars I think Tesla will struggle.
The fans absolutely love them, I think they are OK but wouldn't buy one.
If I was paying that much I would want something built a bit better.

[jpd80]

Transitioning to higher volumes has caused Tesla much pain
It’s looking like the traditional automakers do know what they
Are talking about with quality and mass production

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Transitioning to higher volumes has caused Tesla much pain
It’s looking like the traditional automakers do know what they
Are talking about with quality and mass production

It has just sent alarm bells about Tesla’s long term viability.

We plan on installing a 10 kw solar system with a Tesla Powerwall 2 battery in this coming spring.

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

Definitely not a traditional business man.
Sounds more like a con man

Elon Musk is the Anti-Christ of the Car Industry.

[Crazy Dazz]

Without delving too far into the specifics of Musk's psyche...

• The vast majority of cars are still fuel powered and will be for some time, so its no surprise that the big established makes are profitable.
• Yes, taking on established manufacturers that have been honing their processes for decades, is a tough ask. That's why Chinese cars are still ****e.
• Not every tycoon has the same goal. Enzo clearly didn't set out to become a mass-producer like Henry. Maybe Musk wants to go down in history as an innovator and tech-wizard.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by leesa

I get the impression that Tesla are just trying to shake up the industry and drive progression towards better vehicles, and for that I think they're succeeding.

Define better vehicles. I see this stated over and over about Tesla, yet if you want to visit a track other than a drag strip they are poo. If you want to modify your vehicle they are poo. If you want to tow a decent sized caravan they are poo. If you want to go off road they are poo. If you want to drive long range they are poo.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Battery tech and electrical infrastructure is where the EV concept falls over. Pollution is just being moved elsewhere, through battery production or electrical generation. The real solution is technology to atomize water into its flammable constituents, hydrogen and oxygen. But the government wouldn’t take to this very well, as it would be next to impossible to ensure tax compliance when one could fill their motor vehicle up on tap water and electricity from their power point

Unfortunately this isn't a real solution. Splitting hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy, than is yielded from their combustion.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by irish2

Define better vehicles. I see this stated over and over about Tesla, yet if you want to visit a track other than a drag strip they are poo. If you want to modify your vehicle they are poo. If you want to tow a decent sized caravan they are poo. If you want to go off road they are poo. If you want to drive long range they are poo.

The ev technology seems only suited to cbd running atm & even then we haven't mentioned battery charging times cough cough but as time progresses so does the technology, maybe in a few years solid state battery tech will be the game changer for the ev industry.

Hydrogen ev's are Tesla's real thorn in his side moving forward & this technology has plenty to improve yet too.

Edit - big costs is a major concern for new technology & hydrogen powered cars are no different -

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-big-setback

cheers, Maka

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by irish2

Define better vehicles. I see this stated over and over about Tesla, yet if you want to visit a track other than a drag strip they are poo. If you want to modify your vehicle they are poo. If you want to tow a decent sized caravan they are poo. If you want to go off road they are poo. If you want to drive long range they are poo.

Yet if you want to do as the vast majority of the population and drive from A to B each day they perform very well.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Yet if you want to do as the vast majority of the population and drive from A to B each day they perform very well.

Yet you can do the same, and a lot cheaper in an ICE vehicle.

[jpd80]

Battery Electric vehicles do not make economic sense in our country, they are just so expensive.

[XByoot]

Can you imagine the debacle if these “green” vehicles were a common form of transport in Australia and used our power grid for a charging supply? We can barely manage as we are without any more load on the grid!

Coal fired power stations, what are they, I believe about 33% efficient.... oh, but I have a green car, zero emissions, sure you do. Then there will be the money grab councils all hoping to become power suppliers, you’ll pay for the privelidge of parking and plugging into their charge point, the power suppliers will want payment of course, the councils will also hang you out to dry in ways we haven’t even thought of yet, all to recharge your car. IF we had an efficient and green power grid I’m all for it, but until then all we are doing is moving the pollution to someone else’s backyard. I appreciate a shift like this is a slow and complicated process, but I feel we will be using the ICE for power for a very long time yet. Then there’s the autonomous brigade, good luck there.

Seriously, the governments should lead by example here. Run EV busses and inner city delivery trucks if its sooo efficient. Even our trains could use regenerative braking, but nope, good ol friction brakes there too. We have a Loooong way to go.

[Sabantien]

What Tesla has done is force the industry to start looking at real electric options. And I remember that being touted as a goal when the company was started.

All they produced were ugly abominations no one would ever want to drive. Oh, so sorry, no one wants to buy EVs.

Tesla came along and said, hey. They don't have to be ugly. They don't have to be slow.
I don't know how many Teslas have been sold in Australia, I reckon probably bugger all. But we're still starting to see infrastructure appear for them, even if it is only between Sydney and Melbourne at the moment.

There are problems. They will be overcome.

Would I buy a Tesla? God no. (I'd love to give one a drive though)

Do I think they'll stay around long term? Nah. Maybe if they ditch the mass produced 3 and go back to small, fast exotic type vehicles.

The next generation of F trucks are going to be PHEV. Or at least have a PHEV option. Sure, there's tightening of emissions standards and whatever, but I have to think Tesla showing people that electric isn't necessarily a small, ugly car with the range of a pushbike has been a driving factor in the innovation in the industry.

Of course, it also led Dodge to make the Demon, so that's good too.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by XByoot

Can you imagine the debacle if these “green” vehicles were a common form of transport in Australia and used our power grid for a charging supply? We can barely manage as we are without any more load on the grid!

Coal fired power stations, what are they, I believe about 33% efficient.... oh, but I have a green car, zero emissions, sure you do. Then there will be the money grab councils all hoping to become power suppliers, you’ll pay for the privelidge of parking and plugging into their charge point, the power suppliers will want payment of course, the councils will also hang you out to dry in ways we haven’t even thought of yet, all to recharge your car. IF we had an efficient and green power grid I’m all for it, but until then all we are doing is moving the pollution to someone else’s backyard. I appreciate a shift like this is a slow and complicated process, but I feel we will be using the ICE for power for a very long time yet. Then there’s the autonomous brigade, good luck there.

Seriously, the governments should lead by example here. Run EV busses and inner city delivery trucks if its sooo efficient. Even our trains could use regenerative braking, but nope, good ol friction brakes there too. We have a Loooong way to go.

You are absolutely correct about what energy source powers those ev chargers, what i cant understand in this day & age, where is the onboard self charger?

If i can think of a few ways for it to work, why cant the smart well paid innovators/inventors think something up, imo its not hard but maybe the science (a belt driven generator etc) is a step back tech wise for it to work.

cheers, Maka

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by Maka

You are absolutely correct about what energy source powers those ev chargers, what i cant understand in this day & age, where is the onboard self charger?

If i can think of a few ways for it to work, why cant the smart well paid innovators/inventors think something up, imo its not hard but maybe the science (a belt driven generator etc) is a step back tech wise for it to work.

cheers, Maka

Now THAT would be a good deal. If solar panels were efficient enough and were integrated into the vehicles body panels how good would that be, even solar panel covered car parks.

People will laugh, but how about steam! Use a very low boiling point liquid, burn natural gas. Not suitable for our jump in and go world but hey, it’s an idea. Even an exhaust driven alternator to recover the masses of lost energy in the ICE exhaust. Nothing new there, PRT( power recovery turbines) were used in aviation piston technology in the 50’s.

I do tip my cap to Tesla, it’s raised awareness and that’s a good thing. Hey, I don’t even care about it’s 0 to 100 acceleration, they do of course because that’s what EVs are capable of performing.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by XByoot

I do tip my cap to Tesla, it’s raised awareness and that’s a good thing. Hey, I don’t even care about it’s 0 to 100 acceleration, they do of course because that’s what EVs are capable of performing.

Tesla came along at the right time .. and good on them. But none of this is new. It all just required a change of technology, social and economic conditions, etc:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._electric_cars

GM even tried repackaging a couple of Corvairs as electric vehicles as proof-of-concept, but limited range, battery life, etc kill them off: https://history.gmheritagecenter.com...air_II_Concept

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

What Tesla has done is force the industry to start looking at real electric options.

Trouble is electric itself is not a real option. Its rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic until we can generate base load using renewables or nuclear.

And arguably, the battery tech, if required to support a significant proportion of the worlds vehicles, is going to do terrible things to the environment, as well as create economic problems as the materials from which they're made are hardly renewable.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by b0son

Trouble is electric itself is not a real option. Its rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic until we can generate base load using renewables or nuclear.

And arguably, the battery tech, if required to support a significant proportion of the worlds vehicles, is going to do terrible things to the environment, as well as create economic problems as the materials from which they're made are hardly renewable.

I can see that the Greens aren't going to ask you to join their party anytime soon

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Battery Electric vehicles do not make economic sense in our country, they are just so expensive.

Many vehicles don't make economic sense though.

The mid life crisis dude that drops 120k on a land cruiser that never gets dirty let alone used to its potential makes no economic sense.

The dude that buys a 80-90k hsv/fpv type vehicle to drive to work in city traffic makes no economic sense.

The buyer that buys a 1000cc super bike for the weekly commute makes no economic sense...

A lot of people buy what they want, rather than a car that simply meets their needs.

Although Camry sales would argue that a bit.